PlayStation The Verge: Final Fantasy XVI has a medieval approach to diversity

[Haziqonfire]

I’m looking forward to Final Fantasy XVI, but this is a big yikes. Last year, Naoki Yoshida said this about the game’s lack of diversity.

“Our design concept from the earliest stages of development has always heavily featured medieval Europe, incorporating historical, cultural, political, and anthropological standards that were prevalent at the time. [...] Ultimately, we felt that while incorporating ethnic diversity into Valisthea was important, an over-incorporation into this single corner of a much larger world could end up causing a violation of those narrative boundaries we originally set for ourselves. The story we are telling is fantasy, yes, but it is also rooted in reality.”

This is what Yoshida had to say about feedback to his answer last year.

I had the opportunity to sit down with Yoshida and the senior development team behind FFXVI,and I asked if, since that interview with IGN, Yoshida had the opportunity to hear feedback and if he had anything to say to the fans of color who may be turning their back on the game.

“I believe that with Final Fantasy XVI, we weave together a variety of peoples and cultures set in this kind of sweeping fantasy narrative and world, and one that we strived to create with care and respect,” Yosida answered through translator Michael-Christopher Koji-Fox. “We hope that when players finally are able to take up the game in their own hands, that they will be able to see what we’ve aimed for and will hopefully ultimately be able to connect with that unique experience.”

It’s unfortunate to see the lack of diversity, especially with lame comments about realism to medieval Europe lol. I would hope they would have been better about this sort of thing, hopefully next time.

Source.

 

[kvetcha]

This was a weak-ass argument in the Witcher, and it's even weaker here.

 

[DecoReturns]

“The story we are telling is Fantasy but rooted in reality”

Someone help. English is not my first language.

But can anyone explain to me why I find this sentence funny and sad?

 

[Dekuman]

There will be one brown character from 'distant lands' and an Asian looking one from the far east.

 

[Raccoon]

I love historical fiction, and think period accuracy is critical.

Final Fantasy and The Witcher are not historical fiction.

 

[Ahmed]

I remember when medieval Europeans summoned Ifrit to fight wars and how Moogles lived here.

Also people shouldn't let him know that Ifrit comes from the Arabic عفريت.
Oh and there totally never were any brown people in Europe. Not even during the golden age of al Andalus. And elsewhere:

8 Stunning Images of Black People In Medieval Europe — The Humanity Archive

Medieval times are, without question, one of the most recognizable periods in human history. Old England instantly comes to mind. The folklore of Robin Hood, King Arthur, and Merlin the magician are rapidly called to memory. Thoughts of knights clad in battle armor while jousting on horseback are

www.thehumanityarchive.com

 

[Red Monster]

as much as im excited for the game, this is a bit of a yikes for sure

 

[Jimmy Joe]

This sucks exactly as much as it did when it was first said. It was weak when the Witcher devs said this crap, it's weak now, and it will remain weak in future

 

[Mer.Saloon]

Don't tell them the south of Europe borders the Mediterranean, or that a good percentage of Spain was Muslim at the time.

This is a fantasy game. We don't have to follow by reality.

 

[Clov]

Insane how this guy thinks that putting PoC in his game is less realistic than literal magic. What a disappointment.

 

[Serif]

Final """""""""Fantasy"""""""""

 

[Erimgard]

It's so bizarre to me that people act like the world was divided into strict ethnostate for most of history.

 

[Jimmy Joe]

I should also say that that's just a good piece there, props to Ash Parrish

 

[Vookatos]

These comments remind me of a similar issue with FF15, where the cast was only guys.
Granted, having a boys-only party can make narrative stronger, which I don't see with a 99% white society unless you're making your world HELLA RACIST.

That said, I've not seen this game and don't care for it, so my perception is completely based on those snippets. FF has been more bad than good for the last 20 years, so due to my disinterest I might be missing something. Hell, maybe there's a big world and we were only shown one location. Still, this isn't a satisfactory answer to criticism either way because it's just empty corporate speak.

 

[thoughthaver]

I love historical fiction, and think period accuracy is critical.

Final Fantasy and The Witcher are not historical fiction.

you have clearly never heard about that time when gustavus adolphus summoned shiva during the battle of breitenfeld

 

[IsisStormDragon]

Terrible excuse as it always is.

And most of the people using "medieval realism" as an excuse probably get most, if not all, of their ideas of medieval European life from the fantasy genre, anyway.

 

[chocolate_supra]

As a LotR lover who had to endure the "fan" reaction to Rings of Power's cast, I gotta say I'm not surprised.

Disappointed! But not surprised.

 

[Koren Lesthe]

you have clearly never heard about that time when gustavus adolphus summoned shiva during the battle of breitenfeld

This is based on Japanese History. It is based on famous battles which actually took place in Ancient Japan.

So here’s this GIANT ENEMY CRAB !

 

[Dolce]

I love historical fiction, and think period accuracy is critical.

Final Fantasy and The Witcher are not historical fiction.

now notice how much historical fiction has potatoes in Europe before they were imported from the Americas

 

[Mekanos]

"Forced diversity" argument but in PR talk lmao

Think I'll be skipping this game

 

[MeatheadSamus]

So for people here, what are expectations? Ghosts of Tsushima, for example, is more rooted in reality and in a world where global travel wasn't a thing, so it's OK to have all Asian characters? But Final Fantasy or the Witcher, are completely fictional (I mean, Witcher has vampires...unsure why different color people couldn't exist), so they should include more representation? That's kinda how I view it but I'm wondering what sets people off vs. what people are OK with. Race is a super interesting topic for me. My wife is from SE Asia and my kids are mixed, so these talks are always thought-provoking.

 

[Deleted member 1081]

So for people here, what are expectations? Ghosts of Tsushima, for example, is more rooted in reality and in a world where global travel wasn't a thing, so it's OK to have all Asian characters? But Final Fantasy or the Witcher, are completely fictional (I mean, Witcher has vampires...unsure why different color people couldn't exist), so they should include more representation? That's kinda how I view it but I'm wondering what sets people off vs. what people are OK with. Race is a super interesting topic for me. My wife is from SE Asia and my kids are mixed, so these talks are always thought-provoking.

Not to speak for anyone else, but the attempt at using real world “history” to defend creating an exclusionary fantasy world is a bit gross.

 

[Mekanos]

So for people here, what are expectations? Ghosts of Tsushima, for example, is more rooted in reality and in a world where global travel wasn't a thing, so it's OK to have all Asian characters? But Final Fantasy or the Witcher, are completely fictional (I mean, Witcher has vampires...unsure why different color people couldn't exist), so they should include more representation? That's kinda how I view it but I'm wondering what sets people off vs. what people are OK with. Race is a super interesting topic for me. My wife is from SE Asia and my kids are mixed, so these talks are always thought-provoking.

Go look up the opening of Final Fantasy VII, a game that came out in 1997, and how long it takes for a black character to appear

 

[thoughthaver]

what makes this even better is that this game desperately wants to be final fantasy but game of thrones but even game of thrones swerved on the no minorities in medieval fantasy rule.

so now they have to trot out their historically inaccurate meme excuse on a game with fire demons and giant chickens even though their biggest inspiration is doing the thing they claim they cant do. just chefs kiss

 

[MeatheadSamus]

Go look up the opening of Final Fantasy VII, a game that came out in 1997, and how long it takes for a black character to appear

Not meaning to be rude but I'm confused what this has to do with my questions. Or do you mean, in general, Final Fantasy has been abysmal in its representation? I honestly haven't played enough FF to know its history, but I can tell from comments that it seems pretty terrible at representation.

 

[Mekanos]

Not meaning to be rude but I'm confused what this has to do with my questions. Or do you mean, in general, Final Fantasy has been abysmal in its representation? I honestly haven't played enough FF to know its history, but I can tell from comments that it seems pretty terrible at representation.

If you did your homework you would know the answer is two minutes and twenty seconds.



The point being, Final Fantasy has actually had black characters in major roles for decades, and only now do we get some mealy mouthed bullshit answer from Yoshi P on why they can't.

 

[meatbag]

And most of the people using "medieval realism" as an excuse probably get most, if not all, of their ideas of medieval European life from the fantasy genre, anyway

That's the real kicker, most people don't actually have an accurate idea of what medieval society was really like. So trying to use historical "accuracy" as a defense for the lack of representation is BS.

As a LotR lover who had to endure the "fan" reaction to Rings of Power's cast, I gotta say I'm not surprised

Holy crap was it annoying to talk about Rings of Power. When I praise parts of it, I get called a fake LotR fan. If I criticize it, I'm a racist. UGH.

 

[chocolate_supra]

Holy crap was it annoying to talk about Rings of Power. When I praise parts of it, I get called a fake LotR fan. If I criticize it, I'm a racist. UGH.

How great is it gonna be when WB starts making more LotR movies???????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Deleted member 1108]

Medieval times, famous for not having black people

 

[MeatheadSamus]

If you did your homework you would know the answer is two minutes and twenty seconds.



The point being, Final Fantasy has actually had black characters in major roles for decades, and only now do we get some mealy mouthed bullshit answer from Yoshi P on why they can't.

Hence why I said "I honestly haven't played enough FF to know its history", because I was assuming I would've had to watch hours of gameplay to figure out when the first black character came. So that makes it super interesting to know that they indeed had one. But then I also Googled and there was something about 3 black people in the game who mugged a main character? No idea if that is true but also that's rough.

 

[mariodk18]

How is the non-player character/avatar diversity in FF14? But yeah that "anthropological standards" comment is something else...I feel like starting any answer with "Our goal is" or "We strive to" is just beating around the bush. Either "lie"through PR and say that the not everything in the game has been shown or tell the truth.

edit: Actually, I know what Yoshida's response reminds me of. I find it similar (in it's structure and meandering-ness) to the response the Yakuza producer, Yokoyama, gave to why the game series hadn't appeared on Switch. These are simple yes or no questions- "Will there be more POC/diversity in this game?" "Will Yakuza come to Switch"- and the answers given are anything but simple. Just a lot of word soup about ideologies, "design goals", or other beliefs. (Again, not trying to equate lack of diversity with a game series not coming to a particular platform- just comparing the response style)

Just say what you really think or don't say anything at all. These borderline monologues make your "responses" look worse the longer they go on.

 

[Koren Lesthe]

A long time ago, after the Medieval Era ended, people of color suddenly appeared out of nowhere on Earth.
I don't think aliens or any extra-terrestrial beings were involved in this, but who could've done such a thing ?
Is it possible ? Theorists say yes.
-Yoshida Naoki (Ancient Aliens, History Channel)

 

[Zellia]

I like Yoshi-P but he has really been showing his ass over this, such a weird thing to just double down on and so full of holes. He needs to do better.

 

[manfromthedam]

That part about a Arab-inspired town was frustrating. It wouldn't be ""historically inaccurate" to have only white folks walking around in there wouldn't it? And apparently people from that town don't visit other regions?

Also: people from the south of Europe - Spain, Italy, Greece, southern France etc. - have darker features than any FF16 character I've seen so far. Incorporating that would be ""historically accurate"", but I'm not seeing those either.

And I'm not even talking about the caliphate that ruled Spain for centuries, or the cultural diversity of the Roman Legions before that.

Response on Twitter has been... predictable. Note to self: stick to #gamedev Twitter at all times.

Also people shouldn't let him know that Ifrit comes from the Arabic عفريت.

This so much. It's infuriating.

Fortunately that other super well-known Final Fantasy summon - Shiva - is super European!

 

[Ahmed]

How is the non-player character/avatar diversity in FF14? But yeah that "anthropological standards" comment is something else...I feel like starting any answer with "Our goal is" or "We strive to" is just beating around the bush. Either "lie"through PR and say that the not everything in the game has been shown or tell the truth.

As a non-white person who's played hundreds of hours of FFXIV I think it's very, very bad to the point it's insulting. One of the major starter cities (Ul'dah) is inspired by Arabic architecture, but none of its characters is anything you'd find in these types of cities. Only some clothing styles here and there, but mostly it was Lalafell (small childlike race) and some stereotype rich evil merchants and stuff controlling the city. The only major brown NPC that I can think of in that city isn't even from there.

That part about a Arab-inspired town was frustrating. It wouldn't be ""historically inaccurate" to have only white folks walking around in there wouldn't it? And apparently people from that town don't visit other regions?

Also: people from the south of Europe - Spain, Italy, Greece, southern France etc. - have darker features than any FF16 character I've seen so far. Incorporating that would be ""historically accurate"", but I'm not seeing those either.

And I'm not even talking about the caliphate that ruled Spain for centuries, or the cultural diversity of the Roman Legions before that.

Response on Twitter has been... predictable. Note to self: stick to #gamedev Twitter at all times.

This so much. It's infuriating.

Fortunately that other super well-known Final Fantasy summon - Shiva - is super European!

It's annoying and ironic in a sense that these games, made by non-white/western people and made for white/western people using inspiration from non-Western media, culture etc and whitewashing it to the point it's insulting to said non-Western people. No wonder diversity in this industry is so embarrassingly bad.

 

[Leo]

This was a weak-ass argument in the Witcher, and it's even weaker here.

Especially when FF has always been god awful about diversity even up to the most modern entries, regardless of the setting.

Just say "haha we're behind the times and we don't care", don't make up stupid excuses.

 

[Dolce]

So for people here, what are expectations? Ghosts of Tsushima, for example, is more rooted in reality and in a world where global travel wasn't a thing, so it's OK to have all Asian characters? But Final Fantasy or the Witcher, are completely fictional (I mean, Witcher has vampires...unsure why different color people couldn't exist), so they should include more representation? That's kinda how I view it but I'm wondering what sets people off vs. what people are OK with. Race is a super interesting topic for me. My wife is from SE Asia and my kids are mixed, so these talks are always thought-provoking.

If Final Fantasy XVI was set in like, medieval Scotland, it would be one thing. Ghosts of Tsushima is literally set in Japan. But even with that, Europe was not cut off from the rest of the world like Japan was. Or even many Asian countries. Europe had immigrants even back then.

If Yoshi-P even said "this was kind of a blindspot for us and we should have done better" it would even be another thing. the problem is going full "this is based on Europe so there is only white people"

 

[Gabev]

This kind of reminds me of something I heard on a YouTube video from a channel called Takashii from Japan, the channel is about a Japanese man interviewing people from Japan and foreigners who live in Japan about things that they like in Japan and how it differs from where they are originally from and vice versa about what people from Japan like about other places/cultures and how it differs to how they grew up in Japan. There was one video where he interviews 3 or 4 different black POC about their experiences living in Japan, one of the interviews made a comment of how Japanese people like things about Black culture but felt that they didn't necessarily like the people of said culture.

The comments Yoshi-P made were stupid, I really thought he would have tried to do better.

Edit-

 

[mariodk18]

As a non-white person who's played hundreds of hours of FFXIV I think it's very, very bad to the point it's insulting. One of the major starter cities (Ul'dah) is inspired by Arabic architecture, but none of its characters is anything you'd find in these types of cities. Only some clothing styles here and there, but mostly it was Lalafell (small childlike race) and some stereotype rich evil merchants and stuff controlling the city. The only major brown NPC that I can think of in that city isn't even from there.


It's annoying and ironic in a sense that these games, made by non-white/western people and made for white/western people using inspiration from non-Western media, culture etc and whitewashing it to the point it's insulting to said non-Western people. No wonder diversity in this industry is so embarrassingly bad.

So the fact that it's not just 16 suggests to me that it's more than a coincidence.

Let me ask about character creation then. Surely, you can create a black or any other dark skinned character (along with the appropriate hair styles) in 14, right? Or does it offer nothing more than a skin tone slider?

 

[Ahmed]

So the fact that it's not just 16 suggests to me that it's more than a coincidence.

Let me ask about character creation then. Surely, you can create a black or any other dark skinned character (along with the appropriate hair styles) in 14, right? Or does it offer nothing more than a skin tone slider?

I'll be honest, it's been a while since I made my character. My character is a brown cat guy with spiky hair. I could make my character darker skinned if I wanted. I don't know if skin colour options are the same for any race, there multiple races and I think not every race gets access to every option.

In terms of hairstyles I remember it's pretty bad. There are tons of hairstyles, but they're mostly your typical spiky FF hairstyles, but I do have to add that you can get more hairstyles in the game (it's ridiculous it's not available from the start), so perhaps black hairstyles are available at some point. But I don't remember any from when I first played. And again, this is from my experience making a cat character.

In general, the character creation doesn't do much to allow different faces. There are many presets, and imo none look great on a black character. Some races only have 2 different faces to choose from, so it's pretty limited.

 

[Terrell]

If your game is meant for a worldwide audience but cannot even show consideration for the fact that the world is (and most countries are) not the least bit racially homogenous and expects their fantasy-setting games to not incidentally re-enforce colourism on the basis of that, then you don't deserve the benefit of the doubt there. You just don't.

 

[JazzPotatoes]

Ironically enough, in the UK if you go to historical attractions like the Jorvic Centre, they've done a lot of work in highlighting how there were diverse people living in Britain even in the Roman and post-Roman periods. One of the bodies they discovered in Jorvick was of a citizen who had dark skin, but who seems to have been a regular citizen with possessions, clothing et al.

It turns out, even in really old times, if you have boats and places to sail to, people from different geographic regions will start travelling, migrating and settling.

If a middle of nowhere viking settlement in dark ages England can have diverse citizens, there's no reason a game called Final Fantasy cannot.

 

[HockeyBird]

So for people here, what are expectations? Ghosts of Tsushima, for example, is more rooted in reality and in a world where global travel wasn't a thing, so it's OK to have all Asian characters? But Final Fantasy or the Witcher, are completely fictional (I mean, Witcher has vampires...unsure why different color people couldn't exist), so they should include more representation? That's kinda how I view it but I'm wondering what sets people off vs. what people are OK with. Race is a super interesting topic for me. My wife is from SE Asia and my kids are mixed, so these talks are always thought-provoking.

Ghost of Tshushima is based on an actual historical event, even though they take a lot of liberties with the story. Tshushima Island is a place in the real world. Even so, you can make the argument that Ghosts is less diverse than reality. The Mongol Army was composed of many Chinese and Korean troops but in the game, it's only Mongols. I imagine that the dev team was uncomfortable with the idea of a Japanese Samurai cutting down waves of Koreans and Chinese given relatively recent history so they just kept it to Mongols.

Final Fantasy games are completely fictional. It's a world with giant ridable birds, magic, summons, and...air ships. In previous FF games, you party literally travels across the entire world on foot. So there is no story or real world reason as to why FF16 can't have a more diverse cast. They can make it as diverse as they want.

 

[chocolate_supra]

So there is no story or real world reason as to why FF16 can't have a more diverse cast. They can make it as diverse as they want.

It sounds to me like they did make it as diverse as they want

 

[Erimgard]

Ironically enough, in the UK if you go to historical attractions like the Jorvic Centre, they've done a lot of work in highlighting how there were diverse people living in Britain even in the Roman and post-Roman periods. One of the bodies they discovered in Jorvick was of a citizen who had dark skin, but who seems to have been a regular citizen with possessions, clothing et al.

It turns out, even in really old times, if you have boats and places to sail to, people from different geographic regions will start travelling, migrating and settling.

If a middle of nowhere viking settlement in dark ages England can have diverse citizens, there's no reason a game called Final Fantasy cannot.

You could find artifacts from Greece in Afghanistan and vice versa already in the Bronze Age! The city of Ugarit (destroyed circa 1200 BC) contains tablets written in six different languages.

 

[Lord Azrael]

I wish I lived in the alternate timeline he seems to inhabit where dragons and gods roamed medieval Europe

 

[YoboD]

Insane how he’s doubled down in this stance after how poorly it went over last time. Surely someone at Square could come up with a better response than it being unrealistic to include people of colour in a fantasy game.

 

[MeatheadSamus]

Ghost of Tshushima is based on an actual historical event, even though they take a lot of liberties with the story. Tshushima Island is a place in the real world. Even so, you can make the argument that Ghosts is less diverse than reality. The Mongol Army was composed of many Chinese and Korean troops but in the game, it's only Mongols. I imagine that the dev team was uncomfortable with the idea of a Japanese Samurai cutting down waves of Koreans and Chinese given relatively recent history so they just kept it to Mongols.

Final Fantasy games are completely fictional. It's a world with giant ridable birds, magic, summons, and...air ships. In previous FF games, you party literally travels across the entire world on foot. So there is no story or real world reason as to why FF16 can't have a more diverse cast. They can make it as diverse as they want.

Thanks, this makes a lot of sense!

 

[Scrawnton]

Not sure if this has been discussed, but I feel like the reason for no PoC is because they made a game about slavery and they were to scared to navigate the nuances of slavery and diversity so they just took the easy way out and made everyone white. If you can't be mature, sensitive, and intelligent enough to tell a story about slavery and have PoC in your game, maybe don't broach the subject at all if you aren't going to give it due justice.

 

[Koren Lesthe]

Not sure if this has been discussed, but I feel like the reason for no PoC is because they made a game about slavery and they were to scared to navigate the nuances of slavery and diversity so they just took the easy way out and made everyone white. If you can't be mature, sensitive, and intelligent enough to tell a story about slavery and have PoC in your game, maybe don't broach the subject at all if you aren't going to give it due justice.

Well then maybe they should've said that instead of "We don't think that forcing diversity is good".
Also, the white main character taking hours to consider that "Wow, maybe slavery is bad, actually".

Tales of Symphonia lacked characters of color too (like most of the Tales of games until Arise) and did tackle slavery and racism ; it was the main theme of the story, even adding grey characters and sides. FF 16 team had to watch all of Game of Thrones (seriously).