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Opinion Piece Pikmin 4's Difficulty is Horribly Designed

Ricimer

Ricimer

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I've been watching a lot of Pikmin videos and this one came across my feed:



I found myself agreeing with most of his points:
  • The auto lock-on removes skillful aiming and is clunky
  • Oatchi's carry trivializes squad movement
  • Oatchi's rush is severely overpowered and melts enemies even at its weakest. The manual charge is similarly overpowered.
  • Swarm was a better mechanic for squad movement and combat than the above.
  • The 3 type limit removes depth
  • Pikmin movement is too fast
  • Fralic count limits are a cheap way to add difficulty and don't even add that much, 40 Pikmin still melt most encounters
  • The enemy health and AI is too nerfed
While I liked Pikmin 4 it definitely felt lacking in the challenge department. Swarm really needs to come back as a mechanic and I don't understand how stuff like auto lock-on and Oatchi's abilities made it past the testing phases.

What did you guys think?
 
I mostly agree. The content of Pikmin 4 was very good, but it's lacking in the meaningful challenge I expect from a Pikmin game. Enemies staying dead was another mistake. The respawning and changing enemy layouts of previous games made the levels seem more natural and lived in than Pikmin 4's checklist of enemies.
 
If you’re looking for meaningful challenge in Nintendo games you’ll be disappointed.

I guarantee they implemented each and every one of those bullet points for the reason that you dislike them
 
Oatchi is definitely too powerful and invalidates a lot of the whole point of the game, which is using your pikmin. It’s definitely less tightly designed than something like pikmin 3, but it’s still good.
 
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The main levels generally aren't hard, I will agree with that. Some of those trials/sub-levels later in the game are really tough to get 3 stars (or whatever the winning prize was). I remember having to repeat some challenges several times over and re think my strategy.
 
I think some of the dandori challenges were hard, but I definitely see where they’re coming from. Enemies not respawning it still such a weird choice to me, as is the required autolock when it was optional in 3 deluxe
 
Truno said:
If you’re looking for meaningful challenge in Nintendo games you’ll be disappointed.

I guarantee they implemented each and every one of those bullet points for the reason that you dislike them
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Well it's disappointing because this is a series that had meaningful challenge in its older games (Pikmin 1 and 2) only to become too easy.

For a niche series I'm not against lowing the base difficulty to appeal to a wider audience, but for veteran fans there should be higher difficulty modes or a better balance struck in the base game. Pikmin 4 lacks any difficulty modes, and the one time they did Hard Mode (Ultra Spicy in 3 Deluxe) it was poorly designed to the point being out-of-touch.

Some of the simplification design decisions are just plain bad too. The auto lock-on in 4 got universally panned even by journalists.
 
I agree that the difficulty of Pikmin 4 is too low, but I absolutely disagree with the negation of automatic locking. The operation of this game must be simplified, and if the difficulty is increased, the focus should also be on time planning and the use of Pikmin. Fine operation should not be the theme of Pikmin games.
 
Pikmin is still very much one of those series where a lot of skill expression comes from properly managing everyone. Sure, Pikmin 3 and 4 are easier than 1 and 2 (and 3 and 4 are barely easier than 1 which was already an easy game), but you still have to consider how to actually manage your squad. Sure, Oatchi is really powerful but he's still only one unit and can't be everywhere all at once unless you're in caves, and even then a lot of caves are best done when you split up. Find places where Oatchi is needed for platforming and multitask from there.

In general, waltzing up to every encounter using Oatchi and 100 Pikmin will trivialize everything, but honestly that's by design to me. The skill expression comes from being able to make do with less in the name of speed.
 
Continues to be infuriating that Nintendo usually avoids difficulty modes or folding stuff into accessibility options for the most part. Pokemon, Pikmin, Zelda, etc. Even more baffling when they did attempt it in Pikmin 3 Deluxe.
 
Evil Lucario said:
Pikmin is still very much one of those series where a lot of skill expression comes from properly managing everyone. Sure, Pikmin 3 and 4 are easier than 1 and 2 (and 3 and 4 are barely easier than 1 which was already an easy game), but you still have to consider how to actually manage your squad. Sure, Oatchi is really powerful but he's still only one unit and can't be everywhere all at once unless you're in caves, and even then a lot of caves are best done when you split up. Find places where Oatchi is needed for platforming and multitask from there.

In general, waltzing up to every encounter using Oatchi and 100 Pikmin will trivialize everything, but honestly that's by design to me. The skill expression comes from being able to make do with less in the name of speed.
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Still, enemies being a bit less paper thin changes the calculus on squad management. In Pikmin 1 you really have to consider every Fiery Blowhog and Wollyhop if it's even worth your time to deal with. Every game has reduced that enemy nuisance aspect down to being nearly non-factors.
 
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Secu said:
I agree that the difficulty of Pikmin 4 is too low, but I absolutely disagree with the negation of automatic locking. The operation of this game must be simplified, and if the difficulty is increased, the focus should also be on time planning and the use of Pikmin. Fine operation should not be the theme of Pikmin games.
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True, the option should be there. But the option to turn it off should also be there. It's such a minor thing to add. Truly mind-boggling why it was left out
 
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Will watch the vid when I have time, so not sure if the following points are also mentioned there.

As mentioned above, the auto lock-on should be a toggle imo. It's not the only minor control choice that should be a toggle though. I dont know if anyone else experienced it, but I'd much rather turn off the auto-limiter to the amount of Pikmin something takes to carry. The choice to throw on additional Pikmin to carry an object to base faster is completely overruled at the moment.

Also, it's not just easier in the gameplay, but also in the representation. One of the biggest draws of caves for me is the tension: How deep do they go? For how long do I need to survive? It's such a dumb decision to instantly spoil this to the player by showing the cave completion percentage after each sublevel. It's easy as hell to calculate that there are 3 levels when you see 33% after clearing level 1. Truly the dumbest decision in the game, and one that could have so easily been changed.
 
I agree with some of this, but not all of it.

First of all, it's very obvious that the aim of the game design was to make the game easier and more accessible, with the higher difficulty or higher skill ceiling parts either in challenges or in dandori battles. And that's fine to me. No real complaints there. A lot of Nintendo games do this these days.

I totally disagree with target lock-on - it is a good feature, but it should be a button press like Pikmin 3. The gameplay of Pikmin should not be precisely aiming Pikmin throws in a 3d space, it should be decision making, squad management, time management etc. Like the snagret battles - those were super frustrating in 1 and 2 because the perspective made it impossible to line up throws to hit the head - it was spray and pray. When the real challenge should be corralling the troops, putting them in the right places etc etc.

So when Pikmin 4 introduced auto lock-on then enemies should have changed to suit it. For example, the dwarf bulborb example - that's just stupid. In a game with lock-on, hitting the enemy dead-on is no longer a challenge and therefore should no longer result in a 1 hit KO. In previous games it made sense. But for me, it's a problem with the enemy design not adjusting rather than lock on.

As for Oatchi, he was fun, but yes he trivialised the game and I wish he had only been in small sections. The charge attack was ridiculous.

Pikmin speed is a tough balance - I agree that just having quicker carrying would be the right call.

I get the three-type limit as it prevents you just taking 20 of each (or 15 of each) and then being frustrated when everything takes forever. I would like to have seen that relaxed later in the game.
 
Ricimer said:
For a niche series I'm not against lowing the base difficulty to appeal to a wider audience, but for veteran fans there should be higher difficulty modes or a better balance struck in the base game.
Click to expand...

Veteran fans aren’t Nintendo’s priority. Their goal is to expand their IPs as much as possible. Even if their veterans move on, they’ll find a new customer to replace them with
 
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I adore pretty much everything about Pikmin 4, so this comes with a grain of salt.

I think many of the concerns about the game's difficulty are based on the idea of the upgrades making the game too easy. I think the game could have more clearly signposted for the players that if you want a more challenging experience, do as few upgrades as possible and then only upgrade what you need to in order to progress or obtain medals.

The game was designed around Oatchi, but I think most experienced players will use him strategically for maximum efficiency and not directly control him as much.
 
Pretty much agree with most of the points. Ultimately, I found 4's difficulty lacking, but as someone who plays 2 pretty regularly, I did wonder if it was just me or if the game did actually have some flaws in that regard. At the end of the day, I think 4 does a lot of good while also sacrificing a bit of the bite that previous games had in the interest of being more accessible to new players. Which is not the worst trade-off, and is very smart from a marketing/sales standpoint.

  • Auto lock-on NEEDED to have a toggle or at the very least some improvements to its functionality. There are so many instances where I wished I could turn it off, since it was making some areas and challenges more frustrating by continuously locking on to things I did not want it to. I don't mind it existing, and I don't mind if it is the default. But either fix it or let me choose whether it is on or not. The dedicated lock-on button is more than enough for any encounter where you need to lock-on.
  • Oh, Oatchi... my Pikmin dog... I won't go so far as to say the rush needs nerfed or anything of that nature, but it is incredibly strong. This is at least something you can avoid using if you want to make the game harder, so I don't really mind. But if you want this game to have any sort of challenge, you basically have to avoid using Oatchi at all, which is sad.
  • I love Swarm and the options it brings, but it is obviously much harder to do when your second control stick is now controlling the camera. It makes sense they would focus on Charging and Rushing as your "Swarm" options. But... Swarming is in the game. Just very... very... very late into the game. Would have been neat if you could select between "Swarm" or "Charge" early on, and then unlock the one you didn't choose later down the line.
  • The 3-type limit is something I feel very mixed on. On the one hand, I think that making the levels centered around specific types when designing them makes sense when designing larger levels like 4 has. However, you lose some of the fun of going back to previous areas and accessing new things with new Pikmin types as a result of this, since most of the time the Pikmin you need are found in the same area you are in. Ultimately, I am fine if this becomes the norm as long as the levels are designed well, but I'd love some extra incentive to go back and explore with Pikmin that I did not have when I previously explored the area.
  • I think limiting the cap of Pikmin you can have out makes sense, when you look at 4's design as a whole. The game would be pitiful if you could get 100 reds within the first couple of Days like you could previously. However, it hardly feels like it matters that much. You can get up to 40 or 50 by Day 2 or 3 if you're diligent, and the Wild Pikmin in caves (which are arguably supposed to be the "challenging" part of the game) make this trivial anyways. It didn't ever feel like something that came up outside of the few times the game throws a heavier than usual object at you that you don't have enough Pikmin to carry.

Pikmin 4 was my GOTY for 2023, so it isn't like I hate it or anything. At the end of the day, I love the series too much to overlook stuff I think could be improved. I think the way that 4 blends together all of the distinct "styles" of the previous games is genuinely very impressive. But even the addition of a few things like a toggle for the auto lock-on or respawning enemies would elevate the game, in my opinion. It would never be perfect, though... not with the story the way it is...
 
Truno said:
Veteran fans aren’t Nintendo’s priority. Their goal is to expand their IPs as much as possible. Even if their veterans move on, they’ll find a new customer to replace them with
Click to expand...
I don't think alienating part of your fanbase is ever a good idea. Offering difficulty options isn't a resource intensive addition. There's difficulty mods out there made by singular devs. Nintendo's professional dev team could easily do it.
 
This is just one of those outcomes for modern society. Modern problem requires modern solution. Depending on your build Elden Ring is easy, use strong weapons = easy. If you think it's easy, you are supposed to apply restriction yourself and make it fun/challenging. Personally don't like this, which is why I'm not a big fan of gaming lately.
 
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Pikmin 4 is like a nice and confortable stroll in the park. From the change of camera perspective to the oatchi implementation and the diminishing importance of strategic and management aspects of previous entries the game weirdly felt more like a classic collecthaton than a traditional Pikmin game for me.

I don't think if they achieved an increase in sales to the point they expected, but I am not a fan of such an unique franchise, with hardly anything in the industry playing like it, changing so much to make the product more accesible.
 
Nabbit said:
I adore pretty much everything about Pikmin 4, so this comes with a grain of salt.

I think many of the concerns about the game's difficulty are based on the idea of the upgrades making the game too easy. I think the game could have more clearly signposted for the players that if you want a more challenging experience, do as few upgrades as possible and then only upgrade what you need to in order to progress or obtain medals.

The game was designed around Oatchi, but I think most experienced players will use him strategically for maximum efficiency and not directly control him as much.
Click to expand...

I could maybe entertain this, but I still don't feel like the game encourages splitting up with Oatchi very well outside small sections because of their different toolsets. Feels less intuitive than Pikmin 3's constant high-level directing 🤔
 
I like that it's easy cos we're kids so much and kids like pikmin and kids like doing good at stuff and dandori is there if yiu want a real challeng3
 
Twohearts said:
I like that it's easy cos we're kids so much and kids like pikmin and kids like doing good at stuff and dandori is there if yiu want a real challeng3
Click to expand...

honestly I think they could make it work with side modes like Olimar's Shipwreck Tale and Dandori Challenges but both are kind of flawed, lesser than previous games, and Oatchi is overbearing so it's still a disappointment
 
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Ricimer said:
I don't think alienating part of your fanbase is ever a good idea.
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The only major Nintendo franchises that I can think of that haven’t done this are Mario Kart, Smash Bros, and 2D Mario.

Although, considering that many expect the next MK and Smash to be reboots/new concepts, I could see this happening with those series too
 
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This wasn’t something that ever bothered me during my playthrough because I guess I wasn’t looking for a difficult game. I definitely agree it could be more challenging, though.

Some of those Dandori challenges were really challenging and fun, though. Creating a fine-tuned strategy and having it pay off was really rewarding.
 
Oatchi does make things super easy. That's why I like him! He's such a good dog and he's doing his best
 
Pikmin 4 is maybe my favourite Nintendo-published game of all time. I happen to think it's quite good.

Yeah, it's easier than Pikmin 1 and 2 and probably 3. But also: I've been replaying the series again and a lot of my frustrations with the earlier games comes from stuff like "my non-blue pikmin just casually wandering into water" or "I threw a pikmin .00001 cm away from the thing I want him to do and he's just standing there like a dumbass" and things like riding Oatchi fix that first issue and lock-on fix the second. Yeah it's less challenging if you're looking for a game that's going to kick your ass but if you're looking for a more relaxing game that perfectly balances more chill overworld segments with more puzzling caves and tough dandori challenges, Pikmin 4 does that brilliantly.
 
"Squad movement" is an interesting one because it was a neat compromise you had to be careful about in the first two games, even though a lot of times it felt like an authentic chore. But in 2, for example, you have some treasures in Perplexing Pool that require some dexterity with the Swarm stick to carefully steer your Pikmin towards the objective. Otherwise, and in the worst case scenario, the non-blue Pikmin fall to the water and it's day over.

Swarm is surely the one thing I miss the most in 3 and 4, I think it's partly why Pikmin feel less independent in these entries.
 
It was my first game in the franchise, and I didn't really find it too easy, so I presume the difficulty might've been tailored with expanding the franchise to folks who weren't hardcore fans yet in mind.
 
Yeah, this isn't even really a tuning/difficulty issue.

They changed the franchise on a mechanical level to the point where it's unrecognizable.

They probably do need to get rid of Oatchi. It undermines what the franchise is supposed to be. It feels like you always have access to something that far exceeds any other option.

Felt very much like a one-button game to me. Lock on doesn't help either.
 
I think that’s fine. Every pikmin game has a different purpose. 4 is a celebration of pikmin so it should be easy to make non pikmin fans like pikmin. It’s also about how dogs are nice which is true.
 
Aufhebung RPG said:
This reminds me of the core players who accuse botw of being too easy lamo. not worth it.
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This feels like a post in bad taste.

The issue with Pikmin 4 and BotW/ToTK are completely different.

Pikmin 4 is a mechanical/difficulty issue.

BotW/ToTK are a series direction/level design issue.

Pikmin 4's issue is way more concerning because
1) The franchise is not that popular
2) It's almost simplified to the point where it doesn't even really feel like a game. All the mechanics of older games were thrown out the window.

It'd be more akin to them giving link a charge up slash that auto targets every enemy and kills them ALL in one hit. Like where you hold the button, let go.. and you automatically go to any enemy type and watch him slash it and they die no matter what.

The new Zelda games have some of the most mechanical complexity out of all Nintendo games.. it's the opposite.
 
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I honestly never fully grasped the entire "dandori" concept the game kept pushing. The systems offered to you are so awkward and ineffective for deploying efficient micro and macro management that it ultimately just felt like playing a regular collect-a-thon action platformer with clunky extra steps. Being skilled at Pikmin 4 can be fun and satisfying but 1 and 2 really felt more like the minimalist strategy game it wishes it was.
 
Ripfeld89 said:
I honestly never fully grasped the entire "dandori" concept the game kept pushing. The systems offered to you are so awkward and ineffective for deploying efficient micro and macro management that it ultimately just felt like playing a regular collect-a-thon action platformer with clunky extra steps. Being skilled at Pikmin 4 can be fun and satisfying but 1 and 2 really felt more like the minimalist strategy game it wishes it was.
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Yeah for pushing the dandori concept so hard 4 has the weakest time management/multi tasking out of the entire series because of the simplified design choices.
 
Ripfeld89 said:
I honestly never fully grasped the entire "dandori" concept the game kept pushing. The systems offered to you are so awkward and ineffective for deploying efficient micro and macro management that it ultimately just felt like playing a regular collect-a-thon action platformer with clunky extra steps. Being skilled at Pikmin 4 can be fun and satisfying but 1 and 2 really felt more like the minimalist strategy game it wishes it was.
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I would push back on this. 2 isn’t really like 1 at all in that aspect, it encourages you to take your time and explore and grind as you find cool treasures and monsters. 1 and 3 are the tough tine management games, 4 follows in 2s footsteps but isn’t quite as punishing.
 
4 is like 2 in level design.

But it's utterly broken in its mechanics. I'd argue it's like a new genre.

You aren't managing, throwing and aiming pikmin in this game.

Feels like a mobile game/auto battler. Pick your army... slam into enemy, watch fight.. Oh I won again.

The pikmin are like apex predators in this game lol.

The big creatures are supposed to be scary in pikmin... But pikmin win by fighting in numbers but you lose some pikmin. It's supposed to feel like nature.
You don't even lose pikmin anymore lol. Barely.

The whole point of pikmin was that it felt like survival of the fittest. and you would lose tons of pikmin but you can always grow more! Now you don't even need to grow any. What is the point lol
 
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VintoWin said:
4 is like 2 in level design.

But it's utterly broken in its mechanics. I'd argue it's like a new genre.

You aren't managing, throwing and aiming pikmin in this game.

Feels like a mobile game/auto battler. Pick your army... slam into enemy, watch fight.. Oh I won again.

The pikmin are like apex predators in this game lol.

The big creatures are supposed to be scary in pikmin... But pikmin win by fighting in numbers but you lose some pikmin. It's supposed to feel like nature.
You don't even lose pikmin anymore lol. Barely.

The whole point of pikmin was that it felt like survival of the fittest. and you would lose tons of pikmin but you can always grow more! Now you don't even need to grow any. What is the point lol
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That’s pikmin 1 and 3! Point of pikmin 2 is to find cool stuff and the point of pikmin 4 is “dogs and pikmin are cool”. Hard to disagree.
 
Ripfeld89 said:
I honestly never fully grasped the entire "dandori" concept the game kept pushing. The systems offered to you are so awkward and ineffective for deploying efficient micro and macro management that it ultimately just felt like playing a regular collect-a-thon action platformer with clunky extra steps. Being skilled at Pikmin 4 can be fun and satisfying but 1 and 2 really felt more like the minimalist strategy game it wishes it was.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's even been brought up in this thread along with all the other complaining (lol), but one of the most baffling things about adopting the whole "Dandori" motto is that bringing back the caves actually kind of massively contradicts it. Like yeah, the individual caves are nice little challenges on their own, but the overworld sessions are constantly brought to a halt to do these trials which completely but not completely interrupt the timer. These types of gameplay are opposed to each other, it doesn't make that much sense. Caves would make more sense working like night missions, divorced entirely from the flow of the day.
 
Dandori and Combat/Caves both suffer due to the simplified mechanics.

Neither the Caves nor the Dandori challenges are satisfying. It's broken at a mechanical level.

Caves were like war of attrition strategy gauntlets.

I really think Pikmin 4 fails to be like any of the other games. It's a worse 2. It's a worse 1 and 3.

It's just pretty.
 
Brock Reiher said:
I would push back on this. 2 isn’t really like 1 at all in that aspect, it encourages you to take your time and explore and grind as you find cool treasures and monsters. 1 and 3 are the tough tine management games, 4 follows in 2s footsteps but isn’t quite as punishing.
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Relatively yes due to their overall structures, but I'm thinking more about the core mechanics.

Time management technically exists to some extent in all the games due to the daily cycle, but the tools they've tried to introduce in 3 and 4 have ended up not actually that conducive to completing goals more efficiently.

The early series method of directly moving the swarm and aiming your throws nailed the "feel" of translating the RTS genre into something that can work elegantly as a accessable console game, it could've been the perfect starting point to build into a bigger more complex system, but instead they kept trying to to reinvent the wheel while pretending to progress towards that goal.
 
Ricimer said:
Well it's disappointing because this is a series that had meaningful challenge in its older games (Pikmin 1 and 2) only to become too easy.

For a niche series I'm not against lowing the base difficulty to appeal to a wider audience, but for veteran fans there should be higher difficulty modes or a better balance struck in the base game. Pikmin 4 lacks any difficulty modes, and the one time they did Hard Mode (Ultra Spicy in 3 Deluxe) it was poorly designed to the point being out-of-touch.

Some of the simplification design decisions are just plain bad too. The auto lock-on in 4 got universally panned even by journalists.
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What was bad about 3 DX’s hard mode? Is it not recommended?
 
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