Retro Ocarina of Time thread (and maybe Majora's Mask; also, BOTW 2 should be more like them)

[merp]

Hey, first thread here. I kinda ramble so be prepared.

First, this video. Watch it. Take your time, but try to watch it as much as you can. Pause here and there, take breaks. Maybe have it on another tab while you do other things while it's playing and then come back to it every now and then. Just finish it. Commentary is still great (though some bad 2000s "edgy" humor is in there).



Okay, so one thing I want to highlight is the "atmosphere" and "mystery" and "intrigue" that the game had. I felt that back in 2007 when I finished it for the first time. And I felt that make in 1999 when I first played it. Even the way things "looked" were great. Take the Ganon battle at the end while this music is playing:



To use some comments from under the above music video:

Comment 1:

"This is a crucial moment for the rest of the series. The music set this up perfectly. Not heroic and encouraging as of to say "good will triumph", it's mysterious and dark, filled with a thick tension. Either of them can win at any moment."

Comment 2:

"The fact that this battle determines the fate of hyrule in its entirety just makes the song sound that much more powerful"

Comment 3:

"So, this was my first complete playthrough of the game, and I thought I had won with the castle falling down. And then GANON came up, and I was utterly terrified. And when the Master Sword got knocked away, there was just a sense of dread and despair, a feeling of "You can't win this fight". The Master Sword was basically my main weapon throughout the entire game, I didn't have the Biggoron's Sword, I felt as if I was just doomed to die without it. And then the realization. Most heroes were defined through their, divine weapons or magic armor. But in this fight, this wasn't the case. All the thing I've gained and experienced throughout my playthrough were my true weapon here, and I stood a chance. I could use all the things I gained throughout the journey, eventually regaining the Master Sword and killing GANON. And DAMN, it made me cry, as well as made me feel like a badass. I genuinely love OoT, because of how masterful it is at still giving off these different vibes, may it be with just the ambience, or gameplay changes."

Comment 4:

"the atmosphere along with this theme was what made it so great. Forget about the boss fight for a second, the darkness surrounding Link during this fight with the flames rising to go along with this theme was just simply awesome."

The video by Shining Bright mentions this where you can't even see Ganon and the intermittent thunder in the background illuminates the monster from time to time so that you get brief flashes of what you're fighting here and there. Also, the drums were a nice touch.

Also, the music, especially later on, were on point for the dungeons. Definitely the best dungeons in the series.



^ This is great because it doesn't even sound like it belongs in a typical Zelda "forest" dungeon.



^ I prefer the Islamic chanting version since I'm a sucker for that stuff. Also, contrary to popular belief, it wasn't taken out due outcry from the Islamic community (which is what was commonly said during the 2000s).

Another thing BOTW 2 could use: dungeons that have a theme and aren't just "forest" and "fire" and "water" but I'm just repeating what others said.

I always ask people: do you get the same sense of mystery and feeling that you get from Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask whenever you play Dark Souls or Bloodborne?

And I generally get similar answers: essentially that, yeah, they do seem to have that same feeling to it. Oh yeah, and if I'm correct, FromSoftware were partially inspired by Ocarina of Time and even the recent BOTW game.

Also, best opening in the history of the Zelda franchise:



(I hope they one day bring back this music in another game.)



(The Deku Tree music stuck in my head for years until 2007/2008 when I finally bought another Nintendo 64 and Ocarina of Time video game JUST to complete the game.)

So, err, this OP isn't structured that well, but I thought I might as well lay down my initial thoughts are else I'd never get started.

Tl;dr: BOTW 2 needs to emulate or improve upon what Ocarina of Time did well, in particular the boss battles, the dungeons, the music, the intrigue/atmosphere, and the artistic look. There are other things it could look at Ocarina of Time for, but I'm sure I'll expand on them later on.

Discuss!

 

[GamerJM]

I mean BotW2 is clearly going to build upon BotW given that it's BotW2 and not OoT2. I would like it if it incorporated more OoT-esque elements though.

 

[Brock Reiher]

Ocarina is such a great game, overflowing with personality and charm. I feel like people said great things about it for so long that it easy to forget how good it actually is. Thank you NSO

 

[YolkFolk]

Every 3D Zelda after OoT was based on OoT to some degree. That’s the whole reason we got BotW in the first place because we’d been playing the same style of game for nearly 20 years.

 

[k samedi]

We have enough OoT type Zelda's. the botw formula still has potential to be improved and adds a lot of new game play opportunities. Now it doesn't mean I wouldn't want one, I love everything Zelda, but if I had to choose I would prefer the botw formula.

 

[Hermii]

I think they should keep catering to the traditional style with top down Zelda’s, and iterate on botw conventions with 3d zeldas.

 

[Clix]

I will say this, that despite OcT (a game I love from my favorite series of all time) sometimes gets overly praised, I can safely say that the atmosphere is fantastic, and most importantly, the dungeons are still amazing.

I replayed the game for the 3DS remaster for the first time in a long time in 2018 (last time I played the original OoT was on the Wii) and yeah, the dungeons are still top tier. Except for Jabu. I never liked that dungeon back then and still don’t care for it - and it’s not so much the layout, but rather the design lending itself to navigational nightmare.

 

[Supreme Overlord]

one thing I want to highlight is the "atmosphere" and "mystery" and "intrigue" that the game had.

I can see why you also called out Majora's Mask here, because it took all that, ramped it up, and ran with it. There's a reason I hold that game in such high regard all these years later (Honestly, I place Majora's Mask above Ocarina of Time, but figure they're probably best as a set, even though each stands perfectly on its own).

Another thing BOTW 2 could use: dungeons that have a theme and aren't just "forest" and "fire" and "water" but I'm just repeating what others said.

This is something that would be good for Zelda in general -- it's at its best when these areas reflect an actual world, rather than generic elemental themes; such locations create a sense of place which sets them apart from other levels which otherwise reflect the same quality -- as well as other games, such as Mario.

The Goron Mines in Twilight Princess are an example of taking an elemental theme and putting in in a setting that uses it. The Ancient Cistern from Skyward Sword doesn't particularly have an elemental theme to speak of, more borrowing the motif of a 1918 Japanese short story -- of good and evil and redemption, or the lack thereof. And these dungeons benefit from that.

Variations on the elemental themes is an aspect that Pandora's Tower pulled off rather well. The different towers might be themed on elements and such, but even when you return to those elements in other towers the different areas retain distinct atmospheres. They feel different.

---

Now, not to delve too deep into Breath of the Wild discourse -- not having a Switch yet is seriously hampering how deep I can get into some of these discussions -- --, but there seems to be an immediate impression that this thread is meant to argue that The Sequel to the Legend if Zelda: Breath of the Wild should adhere to the overall structure of Ocarina of Time, to become, essentially, another iteration thereof:

Every 3D Zelda after OoT was based on OoT to some degree. That’s the whole reason we got BotW in the first place because we’d been playing the same style of game for nearly 20 years.

We have enough OoT type Zelda's. the botw formula still has potential to be improved and adds a lot of new game play opportunities. Now it doesn't mean I wouldn't want one, I love everything Zelda, but if I had to choose I would prefer the botw formula.

I think they should keep catering to the traditional style with top down Zelda’s, and iterate on botw conventions with 3d zeldas.

But even at the end of the opening post, where it explicitly veers into the idea that The Sequel to The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild should emulate or improve on certain aspects, I don't get the impression it means anything about turning it into the same game with the same structure:

BOTW 2 needs to emulate or improve upon what Ocarina of Time did well, in particular the boss battles, the dungeons, the music, the intrigue/atmosphere, and the artistic look. There are other things it could look at Ocarina of Time for, but I'm sure I'll expand on them later on.

Rather, I get the impression it's more a comment on the atmosphere of those earlier 3D games, the edge they possessed, and how any such game could benefit from that.

Nothing that has been stated requires that a new game emulates the structures of the older games. Even the mention of dungeon themes -- that they should be more than just fire/ice/water/air/forest/heart -- could be incorporated into a game structured differently, which perhaps melds dungeon type areas into the world itself, creating a weight and a sense of place.

That atmosphere and mystery and intrigue seems to be a major point here, and none of that requires a game to be structures like Ocarina of Time at all. It, too, adds a weight to proceedings, a bit of an edge or a bite.

Proceeding in a new direction doesn't negate the ability to look back and learn from what was done before.

 

[YoboD]

So firstly, great post about the strengths of OoT. Really enjoyable read.

That said, I disagree about the elements that the BotW sequel needs to emulate. Boss battles and dungeons, sure, why not, though I personally would prefer they try to expand on the BotW Hyrule Castle as a way to do dungeons. I heavily disagree with the others though, especially artstyle and atmosphere. BotW felt like it was practically dripping with this beautiful melancholy for me the entire playthrough, and the music was a big part of it. From when you first boot the game up there’s so much wonder and intrigue about the world around you that it forms the basis for how the player is guided and where they’re going to go in the world next. OoT is very atmospheric too, but I don’t think it does it nearly as well. Maybe I would feel differently if I played OoT when it first came out instead of years later but I don’t think BotW has much to learn from it there.

As for artstyle well, BotW is by far my favourite in the series. The Ghibli-esque look is frankly perfect for the series, to the point where I’m pretty sure whatever they pick next is probably going to leave me disappointed in comparison. I’m really glad we’re getting another game in this style.

 

[WestEgg]

Replaying Ocarina of Time on NSO and tried this for the first time. Something I doubt 99% of players will experience as you’ll need to complete both the Spirit Temple and the Gerudo Training Grounds prior to doing the Shadow Temple, but such a cool detail to add.

 

[Deleted member 540]

If you want Ocarina of Time, you could - you know - play Ocarina of Time.

It's much better that every game has its own voice rather than trying to emulate previous hits. It's what makes the series so interesting.

 

[Supreme Overlord]

BotW felt like it was practically dripping with this beautiful melancholy for me the entire playthrough, and the music was a big part of it. From when you first boot the game up there’s so much wonder and intrigue about the world around you that it forms the basis for how the player is guided and where they’re going to go in the world next. OoT is very atmospheric too, but I don’t think it does it nearly as well. Maybe I would feel differently if I played OoT when it first came out instead of years later but I don’t think BotW has much to learn from it there.

I've heard this a couple times now about Breath of the Wild and I have to say it intrigues me. I hope it really drips with melancholy like people are saying.

Likewise, I personally hope The Sequel to The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild takes a bit of a darker turn, with its own bite and edge, but in a way that complements the melancholy atmosphere of its predecessor, perhaps even intensifies it somehow.

Granted, if it exudes its own atmosphere in some way, I assume that'll be good. I certainly don't think all of the games need the same atmosphere. They're different games, with different goals.

As for artstyle well, BotW is by far my favourite in the series. The Ghibli-esque look is frankly perfect for the series, to the point where I’m pretty sure whatever they pick next is probably going to leave me disappointed in comparison. I’m really glad we’re getting another game in this style.

I also really like the current artstyle and think it works really well and could be tweaked, altered, and adapted in different ways to for different situations and tones.

It really does feel like a good fit for the series.

That said, I'm also glad Zelda tends to shift those styles and tries new things. It'll be exciting to see what it becomes next.

I personally would prefer they try to expand on the BotW Hyrule Castle as a way to do dungeons.

From what I've heard, this might be fitting in some circumstances but doesn't hit all the same expectations people might have for dungeons. Though I figure dungeons don't need to all follow the same template, so something similar should be able to fit in with others of different types. Mostly I'd like dungeons to fit in as part of the world; their structures can, and probably should, vary.

 

[manfromthedam]

Necrobump having almost finished it on Switch!

I've tried many times over the years to play Ocarina (emulated), but I always stop around the Shadow Temple. I find it's aesthetics, music and storytelling extremely intriguing, and the arcade-RPG mashup of Zelda has always been a masterstroke. However I could never finish it.

Ocarina is, essentially, an excellent dungeon grind strung together by a beautiful but obtuse overworld. Dungeon fatigue sets in for me, and having to fiddle around to trigger the next story event in the overworld became frustrating time and again.

In that sense it's very much of it's time. It pads it's running time by it's overworld progression being unclear. That also triggers the imagination of course, which helps the mystique of the game tremendously, but the player's imagination and creativity is stifled because often only one answer is "correct". Which was one of BotW's many triumphs: if a solution makes sense, it often works.

I'm now playing it on Switch, and being able to fudge around with it handheld and use save states have finally allowed me to reach Ganon's Keep. I was blown away by the Spirit Temple - which I'd never played before. Ocarina feels very much like a Ghibli film from a storytelling perspective: restoring balance, aiding nature and it's inhabitants, and elegant dialogue. In that way BotW follows in it's footsteps.

Some dungeons are a chore: Jabu Jabu and the Shadow Temple can go as far as I'm concerned. Most dungeons are great however - the Fire and Spirit Temples have a fantastic sense of flow, and the Forest Temple is unsettling in all the right ways. The Water Temple has some of the best ambience I've seen in a game of it's time.

TLDR: excellent but grindy dungeons, inspiring but obtuse overworld, great gameplay concepts with a whiff of '90s 3D Jank. Recommended with save states and the occasional walkthrough.

 

[balgajo]

Replaying Ocarina of Time on NSO and tried this for the first time. Something I doubt 99% of players will experience as you’ll need to complete both the Spirit Temple and the Gerudo Training Grounds prior to doing the Shadow Temple, but such a cool detail to add.

Waattt?? 20+ years playing it and I never knew you could do this.