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Discussion Lately, I have been really feeling that we need a new internet

Lozjam

Lozjam

Don't Forget Me
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With AI being thrust into Google, and Bing. Most major gaming websites being guzzled up by IGN, the torture that is the algorithm and profit focused Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Tiktock and YouTube….. Then reddits privatization and being used as an AI farm.

What really sucks, at least for America, is that due to capitalism, spaces in general became a lot less people friendly. Third spaces have all but disappeared. But for the past 20 years, you could connect with real people over pretty much everything. But now, the internet is becoming increasingly unfriendly towards people, and is now companies playgrounds to make a ton of money off of. It’s honestly terrifying. But I really feel like the internet has become much less helpful in a very short amount of time.

I am overall glad we have this space here, as it really represents one of the last bastions of community. But wow. I think we need to hit a reboot button or something on this.
 
There is no point in trying to create a new model of the Internet, because both web 1.0 and 2.0 are products of different stages of capitalist exploitation of the media and production of information, but they just conform to your internalized definition of what is friendly to the Internet at an earlier time. The political economy of communication has already argued that the "gift economy" model of spontaneous communities in the internet age (communities built around shared interests and responsibilities, such as bbs or mod sites) was part of capitalist reproduction in the first place, and that the current situation is just a result of its evolution, and that utopia never existed.
 
I know people are still saying forums are dying, but sometimes I feel like we are early adopters of how the web could look like in the future. Countless of self organized small to medium sized forums with lose connections here and there, but too niche for any company to make easily a centralized profit out of it and too scattered for people to let anyone and their grandma know their uninformed opinion.
 
lexony said:
I know people are still saying forums are dying, but sometimes I feel like we are early adopters of how the web could look like in the future. Countless of self organized small to medium sized forums with lose connections here and there, but too niche for any company to make easily a centralized profit out of it and too scattered for people to let anyone and their grandma know their uninformed opinion.
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This is pretty much what proponents of the "Fediverse" especially would love to see happen.

It's not a perfect solution (or at least things like Mastodon certainly aren't), but the idea of trying to bring back the de-centralized internet is something I would definitely get behind. Being able to have a large "public square" for social media, and centralized depots for information were all great things, until the inevitable downsides cropped up, with no apparent need or desire to address and moderate them appropriately.
 
TreIII said:
This is pretty much what proponents of the "Fediverse" especially would love to see happen.

It's not a perfect solution (or at least things like Mastodon certainly aren't), but the idea of trying to bring back the de-centralized internet is something I would definitely get behind. Being able to have a large "public square" for social media, and centralized depots for information were all great things, until the inevitable downsides cropped up, with no apparent need or desire to address and moderate them appropriately.
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Yeah it has the problem that it is a bigger commitment to actually post stuff, to keep a community alive and you might have to search for information more. Also, for the better or the worse, Things would have a harder time getting viral. Like I don't think we would know as much about the many issues of for example the Game Industry, if it wasn't for centralized Social Media. But for many things happening around the word I sometimes wish it would just not reach me that easily.

Another disadvantage would be the danger of some communities forming their own weird bubbles far away from society, but it certainly can't be worse than what we now have with "opinions" of far right extremists getting normalized all over the web. I mean I feel like it was better when those groups only had their own spaces somewhere in the web, where they couldn't really reach the general public.
 
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Aufhebung RPG said:
There is no point in trying to create a new model of the Internet, because both web 1.0 and 2.0 are products of different stages of capitalist exploitation of the media and production of information, but they just conform to your internalized definition of what is friendly to the Internet at an earlier time. The political economy of communication has already argued that the "gift economy" model of spontaneous communities in the internet age (communities built around shared interests and responsibilities, such as bbs or mod sites) was part of capitalist reproduction in the first place, and that the current situation is just a result of its evolution, and that utopia never existed.
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I don't think anyone would argue that Web 1.0 was a "utopia" or not also a result of capitalism (given that capitalism dictates the material conditions of everything around us). But it was certainly more decentralized and less prone to predatory monetization, if only because its status as a utility was limited until the development of smartphones, fundamentally transforming the internet as we know it.

GreyFox said:
Agree, but I wouldn't blame capitalism. I'm sure the internet in North Korea kinda sucks
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GNTt1q8WEAAqY-9.jpg
 
Yeah, OP you are 100% correct and it’s quite scary that not enough people are realizing this.
We’re essentially like Frogs in boiling water
 
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lexony said:
Another disadvantage would be the danger of some communities forming their own weird bubbles far away from society, but it certainly can't be worse than what we now have with "opinions" of far right extremists getting normalized all over the web. I mean I feel like it was better when those groups only had their own spaces somewhere in the web, where they couldn't really reach the general public.
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As someone who grew up around groups of far right extremists I wish they'd go back to being weird bubbles far away from society. I've seen so many people radicalized by the mainstreamification of alt-right conspiracy thinking, lost close friends and family to it even. It's gotten to the point where I sometimes genuinely feel like I'm the outsider for not thinking "Disney has gone woke" or whatever. I know bigotry and hate have been around forever but it was at least becoming rude enough that people were keeping it to themselves. The explosion of outward, conversational hate IRL has been so alienating and disheartening, if it could go back to being weird little jerks on conspiracy mailing lists that'd be great.
 
Mekanos said:
I don't think anyone would argue that Web 1.0 was a "utopia" or not also a result of capitalism (given that capitalism dictates the material conditions of everything around us). But it was certainly more decentralized and less prone to predatory monetization, if only because its status as a utility was limited until the development of smartphones, fundamentally transforming the internet as we know it.


GNTt1q8WEAAqY-9.jpg
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What I'm trying to say is that what you're proposing isn't solid in and of itself, and that the reason why the internet has evolved into what it is today isn't because "capitalism's claws have invaded the internet community from the outside", it's because the early decentralized boards that used to act as a medium for grafting together information from around the globe can't meet the needs of the development of information capitalism any more, and I think that all the people who are discussing the early internet should realize that replicating it in the 2020s would be tantamount to insular behavior.

The relationship between platform capitalism and early Internet communities is complex, but broadly speaking you can see that there is an endogenous logical relationship between the two, and the reason I would say that utopia doesn't exist is because you can't isolate what you think of as the "good old days" of the past and look at it in isolation from the current stage of platform capitalism.
 
lexony said:
I hate this so much and I don‘t even really like Disney.
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Same here! I haven't really been a fan of their animated films since I was a kid (coincidentally around the time they fired about 75% of their animation department) but I've always loved Star Wars and thought the MCU was an interesting experiment, and as soon as both were bought by Disney it was like my friends very quickly began making sure I was constantly reminded of all the reasons I should hate them both now, because the internet had started telling them Disney was pushing agendas. And also certain video games and certain shows and and and. I basically watched my IRL friends devolve into typical twitter bluechecks.
 
Internet2 to the rescue!

en.wikipedia.org

Internet2 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Earnestly, you effectively run into an Eternal September situation with public communications with enough critical mass.

Perhaps we will see a new brand of patrons supporting newer third places over time (much the way PBS has solid patronage), but that may take a generation. It would be interesting to see if Melinda Gates or MacKenzie Scott take the Joan Kroc route they way she did with PBS.
 
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Aufhebung RPG said:
What I'm trying to say is that what you're proposing isn't solid in and of itself, and that the reason why the internet has evolved into what it is today isn't because "capitalism's claws have invaded the internet community from the outside", it's because the early decentralized boards that used to act as a medium for grafting together information from around the globe can't meet the needs of the development of information capitalism any more, and I think that all the people who are discussing the early internet should realize that replicating it in the 2020s would be tantamount to insular behavior.

The relationship between platform capitalism and early Internet communities is complex, but broadly speaking you can see that there is an endogenous logical relationship between the two, and the reason I would say that utopia doesn't exist is because you can't isolate what you think of as the "good old days" of the past and look at it in isolation from the current stage of platform capitalism.
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I feel like you’re not really disagreeing much with me. Certainly the development of capitalism and the current stage of the internet are intertwined, and 2000s internet vs 2020s internet is a reflection of how fast information travels. I, personally, don’t expect things to just revert back to the way they were. However I am certainly in favor of dismantling capital’s influence as a Marxist, so even if it’s not a full of “return to the good old days” thing, I think something has to be done to revert the current course of things.
 
Mekanos said:
I feel like you’re not really disagreeing much with me. Certainly the development of capitalism and the current stage of the internet are intertwined, and 2000s internet vs 2020s internet is a reflection of how fast information travels. I, personally, don’t expect things to just revert back to the way they were. However I am certainly in favor of dismantling capital’s influence as a Marxist, so even if it’s not a full of “return to the good old days” thing, I think something has to be done to revert the current course of things.
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Of course, but my assertion as a Marxist is far more extreme than that, that violence is often the complete manifestation of contradictions, and that it only stops when the blood of the bourgeoisie and the residents of a city is completely drained by the use of violence and massacres. I never think that any "solution" can be devised before real violence.

This is without a doubt my Lenin-Fanonist moment.
 
Aufhebung RPG said:
Of course, but my assertion as a Marxist is far more extreme than that, that violence is often the complete manifestation of contradictions, and that it only stops when the blood of the bourgeoisie and the residents of a city is completely drained by the use of violence and massacres. I never think that any "solution" can be devised before real violence.
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I always say that I don’t have a crystal ball into the future so I try to not predict these sort of things. But if internet is thought of as a common utility like water or electricity, and it becomes restrained, the question of violence erupting over it is an interesting one. I am not sure how that would play out, but I am certainly in favor of giving the power to the proletariat. I enjoyed this little discussion!
 
GreyFox said:
That, sadly, is what a lot of people seem to think these days. When you don't produce, society seems like something that just happens outside, like the weather. Unfortunately, most people (especially the terminally online), don't do much producing and in circles like this it becomes very normal to complain about what the producers are producing. Much like sitting inside and complaining about the weather.
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Actually what's becoming normal is most people who are producing are complaining about not being paid a living wage for the labor they're producing with while corporations keep ever increasing proportions of the profits from what the workers are producing and then buy up wholeass media conglomerates to run stories about how we should be ashamed for complaining.
 
chocolate_supra said:
As someone who grew up around groups of far right extremists I wish they'd go back to being weird bubbles far away from society. I've seen so many people radicalized by the mainstreamification of alt-right conspiracy thinking, lost close friends and family to it even. It's gotten to the point where I sometimes genuinely feel like I'm the outsider for not thinking "Disney has gone woke" or whatever. I know bigotry and hate have been around forever but it was at least becoming rude enough that people were keeping it to themselves. The explosion of outward, conversational hate IRL has been so alienating and disheartening, if it could go back to being weird little jerks on conspiracy mailing lists that'd be great.
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Yup, someone I follow made a account on Instagram for their teenage son, and before anything was posted, the only info the platform had of the user was age and gender, it was already showing ads for incel/redpill content.
 
I abhor violence as a political tool, both from a personal standpoint and my interest in history showing that societies built on a foundation of brutality are ultimately doomed to fail. But ffs, if you don't get why "certain fantasy authors" are not to be discussed here than that shows that your supposed anti-violence stance is little more than ignorance of the real-life repercussions of said "authors" words and actions (and that's me giving you the benefit of the doubt).

And like hologram said, you've posted fuck all in video game threads and didn't even bother with an introduction but went straight for this thread.
 
GreyFox said:
I believe I made a mistake joining this site. I was under the impression that this was a videogame board. I read the banned content list and noticed that there is no ban on "extreme political language", just "far right". So language like "I never think that any "solution" can be devised before real violence" is perfectly acceptable, provided you are a "marxist", while certain fantasy authors are not to be discussed. How anyone here cannot see that they are just useful tools for the people feeding them their opinions is beyond me.

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Back to Stormfront for you
 
GreyFox said:
That, sadly, is what a lot of people seem to think these days. When you don't produce, society seems like something that just happens outside, like the weather. Unfortunately, most people (especially the terminally online), don't do much producing and in circles like this it becomes very normal to complain about what the producers are producing. Much like sitting inside and complaining about the weather.
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You’ve made a lot of assumptions about me. I’m curious what the “producing” you presume I don’t do looks like to you?
 
I'm just amazed that forty years of life experience can be so easily watered down to "others feeding my opinions to me."
 
GreyFox said:
I believe I made a mistake joining this site. I was under the impression that this was a videogame board. I read the banned content list and noticed that there is no ban on "extreme political language", just "far right". So language like "I never think that any "solution" can be devised before real violence" is perfectly acceptable, provided you are a "marxist", while certain fantasy authors are not to be discussed. How anyone here cannot see that they are just useful tools for the people feeding them their opinions is beyond me.
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I think you are confused. This thread is in The Roost, which is in fact, the non-gaming board. Our gaming board can be found here.
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Gaming discussions. Swing by the Treehouse for the latest gaming news and gossip. No Kremlings allowed!
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It seems you have already familiarized yourself with the banned content list, so you should now be good to go, unless I'm missing any other ulterior motives for joining this website besides your stated one.
 
GreyFox said:
I believe I made a mistake joining this site. I was under the impression that this was a videogame board. I read the banned content list and noticed that there is no ban on "extreme political language", just "far right". So language like "I never think that any "solution" can be devised before real violence" is perfectly acceptable, provided you are a "marxist", while certain fantasy authors are not to be discussed. How anyone here cannot see that they are just useful tools for the people feeding them their opinions is beyond me.

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So what I need to tell you is that complaining is not an American tradition, I am a Chinese, and I don't think it can be defined by nationality.Capitalism is a stark reality, and the "well-educated" people you refer to as "technocrats" produced by the capitalist academic system or neo-reactionaries widespread among programmers are the alternative right.
One of the characteristics of the Internet medium is that a large number of alternative right-wingers make themselves up as marginalized people and express their shameless opinions in various niche forums as well as in popular forums, a phenomenon that Zizek defines precisely: in the 21st century, the positions are reversed, sexual minorities, who used to be the marginalized, become the mainstream, and the conservative right-wingers become the new marginalized.
 
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GreyFox said:
I believe I made a mistake joining this site. I was under the impression that this was a videogame board. I read the banned content list and noticed that there is no ban on "extreme political language", just "far right". So language like "I never think that any "solution" can be devised before real violence" is perfectly acceptable, provided you are a "marxist", while certain fantasy authors are not to be discussed. How anyone here cannot see that they are just useful tools for the people feeding them their opinions is beyond me.

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You’ve confused the ‘banned content list’ with Famiboards overarching rules. The former is a list of sources and media to avoid discussion of, following discussion as a commmunity, as they are either full of or support bigotry and as such are in breach of Famiboards site rules. You can find a link to the rules at the bottom of the page.
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Rules

A list of rules users must stick to.
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If you have a problem with specific posts, it’s best to report it rather than start off by going for sweeping attacks on a community that’s already had these discussions at length, but false equivalencies around banned content, without acknowledging the reasons they are banned that are listed on the same page, are unlikely to get very far.

Alternatively, videogames is in the Treehouse.
 
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chocolate_supra said:
see now the MIB were like the OGs of cancel culture
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🎵
Woo
Here come the Mods In Black
It's the MIB's, uh, here come the MIB's
Here come the Mods In Black
(Mods In Black)
They won't let you remember
Nah, nah, nah
The good guys dress in black, remember that
Just in case we ever face to face and make contact
The title held by me, MIB
Means what you think you saw, you did not see
🎶
 
Major loss for us. We could have seen more of their opinions. They might have even posted in a video game thread someday.
 
I just realized this is the same thread where I said all this 👇
chocolate_supra said:
As someone who grew up around groups of far right extremists I wish they'd go back to being weird bubbles far away from society.
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chocolate_supra said:
if it could go back to being weird little jerks on conspiracy mailing lists that'd be great.
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and now I'm laughing
 
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