Discussion Kinda crazy how in the span of a 3 years, Rare made one of the most BS hard games ever and then one of the most "fair hard" games ever.

[ILovethegameAC]

-From extremely limited continues to unlimited continues
-From not even passwords to being able to save constantly
-From the difficulty spiking immediatly, to the game progressively scaling in difficulty for the most part
-From changing gameplays styles way too often, easily confusing the player on what to do, to consistent gameplay with only ocasional mechanical changes.
-From the controls not being the best for the platfoming stages to them being just about right
-Overall going from an enjoyable but incredibly frustrating game where you needed to play like a mad man and memorize it perfectly if you wanted to beat it, to a game that will give you a hard time the first time you play it, but that anyone can beat and where your deaths are almost 100% your fault.

 

[Stilt Village]

Not to compare it to Battletoads, but one of the hardest levels in Donkey Kong Country is right at the start of world 2, and it tries to snipe you with a cheap shot just when you think it's over. There's only a few moments like that, but I definitely don't think it's a shining example of progressively scaling difficulty or complete fairness (especially once you take the bonus rooms into consideration...)

I remember a lot of levels in this game as difficulty spikes the first time I played it (and then again the first time I played it with the original physics of the SNES version). Treetop Town, Temple Tempest, Oil Drum Alley, Poison Pond. But Mine Cart Carnage and especially Snow Barrel Blast are just crazy egregious with their placement.

 

[ILovethegameAC]

Not to compare it to Battletoads, but one of the hardest levels in Donkey Kong Country is right at the start of world 2, and it tries to snipe you with a cheap shot just when you think it's over. There's only a few moments like that, but I definitely don't think it's a shining example of progressively scaling difficulty or complete fairness (especially once you take the bonus rooms into consideration...)

I remember a lot of levels in this game as difficulty spikes the first time I played it (and then again the first time I played it with the original physics of the SNES version). Treetop Town, Temple Tempest, Oil Drum Alley, Poison Pond. But Mine Cart Carnage and especially Snow Barrel Blast are just crazy egregious with their placement.

Yeah, that's why I said it mostly has a regular scaling difficulty. Plus that level is kind of isolated on it's difficulty, while the following levels to the Turbo Tunnel are maybe even harder.

 

[Vaenyr]

Rare has always had issues with the fairness of their games.

Banjo Kazooie for example is mostly pretty easy and fair with a couple of spike here and there. Dying in Rusty Bucket Bay or Click Clock Wood can be punishing, but they are endgame worlds so it's appropriate. The final boss fight on the other hand is a massive difficulty spike. It's hard, long und relentless, which is quite the baffling decision when the rest of the game has barely any boss fights.

Recently played Jet Force Gemini for the first time (absolutely hated it) and that game has enormous balancing issues. The normal gameplay can quickly turn into a frustrating mess, but once again the final boss is pure bullshit and you can even screw yourself over if you wasted important ammo upgrades on the wrong characters. Thankfully NSO has save states, because I'd never have the patience to sit down and try until I kill the boss in one go.

 

[Rareware]

While DKC is certainly easier than any Battletoads game, it’s still very challenging, especially as you get to the later worlds. But I don’t think it was unfair in any way.

Rare has always had issues with the fairness of their games.

Banjo Kazooie for example is mostly pretty easy and fair with a couple of spike here and there. Dying in Rusty Bucket Bay or Click Clock Wood can be punishing, but they are endgame worlds so it's appropriate. The final boss fight on the other hand is a massive difficulty spike. It's hard, long und relentless, which is quite the baffling decision when the rest of the game has barely any boss fights.

Recently played Jet Force Gemini for the first time (absolutely hated it) and that game has enormous balancing issues. The normal gameplay can quickly turn into a frustrating mess, but once again the final boss is pure bullshit and you can even screw yourself over if you wasted important ammo upgrades on the wrong characters. Thankfully NSO has save states, because I'd never have the patience to sit down and try until I kill the boss in one go.

The fight with Gruntilda is probably my favorite 3D platformer fight to this day. It takes into account pretty much all of the skills you’ve learned in your adventure and puts them to the test. Flying, Beak Bombing, Egg Shooting, Wonder Wing… It has it all. The Game Show tests your knowledge, the Grunty fight tests your playing skills.

 

[Vaenyr]

The fight with Gruntilda is probably my favorite 3D platformer fight to this day. It takes into account pretty much all of the skills you’ve learned in your adventure and puts them to the test. Flying, Beak Bombing, Egg Shooting, Wonder Wing… It has it all. The Game Show tests your knowledge, the Grunty fight tests your playing skills.

It's definitely a cool fight, especially compared to Mario 64's rather simplistic final boss. The music is amazing as well. It's just that the game doesn't adequately prepare you for the difficulty spike. What you said is correct, in theory. It does test all the things you learned, but it kinda does that out of the blue without having a few more challenges before that point.

At least it's not as unforgiving as Jet Force Gemini's final boss

 

[Rareware]

It's definitely a cool fight, especially compared to Mario 64's rather simplistic final boss. The music is amazing as well. It's just that the game doesn't adequately prepare you for the difficulty spike. What you said is correct, in theory. It does test all the things you learned, but it kinda does that out of the blue without having a few more challenges before that point.

At least it's not as unforgiving as Jet Force Gemini's final boss

I feel like it does prepare you. Nearly every world in the game has you utilizing all of the moves you’ve learned throughout the game. It’s just they’re being used for platforming challenges and puzzles. Then when you get to Grunty, it takes that opposite approach and tests how you use those same skills in combat.

Yeah Mizar and most of the bosses in JFG are no joke!

 

[PixelKnight]

JFG I didn’t even reach the final boss on - I gave up at the ‘collecting all the little fluffy things is mandatory to continue’. This was before I had internet access at home, so the whole thing was an exercise in frustration while fighting the controls. And it was a £50 game back then.

 

[Vaenyr]

I feel like it does prepare you. Nearly every world in the game has you utilizing all of the moves you’ve learned throughout the game. It’s just they’re being used for platforming challenges and puzzles. Then when you get to Grunty, it takes that opposite approach and tests how you use those same skills in combat.

Yeah Mizar and most of the bosses in JFG are no joke!

Precisely, it has you use those moves in platforming not in boss battles. The context is entirely different and because of that I think the game would've benefited from having a few more bosses (one of the few things Tooie does better in my opinion).

Flying around the earlier worlds is essentially completely different to what the final boss asks of you. I'm not saying the boss battle should've been changed, I'm just saying that the spike is too big and that they could've smoothed it over with a few more battles.

 

[Regulus Tera]

Rare has always had issues with the fairness of their games.

Banjo Kazooie for example is mostly pretty easy and fair with a couple of spike here and there. Dying in Rusty Bucket Bay or Click Clock Wood can be punishing, but they are endgame worlds so it's appropriate. The final boss fight on the other hand is a massive difficulty spike. It's hard, long und relentless, which is quite the baffling decision when the rest of the game has barely any boss fights.

Recently played Jet Force Gemini for the first time (absolutely hated it) and that game has enormous balancing issues. The normal gameplay can quickly turn into a frustrating mess, but once again the final boss is pure bullshit and you can even screw yourself over if you wasted important ammo upgrades on the wrong characters. Thankfully NSO has save states, because I'd never have the patience to sit down and try until I kill the boss in one go.

No Rare boss fight is as unforgiving as the first Wizpig race in Diddy Kong Racing. It asks you to utilize a mechanic that is taught nowhere in the game (green boosting), a single mistake forces you to restart, and is borderline impossible with the heavy racers.

 

[Beanstar40]

I have no shame in admitting I made liberal use of the rewind feature during my dkc trilogy replay
Last year

 

[Rareware]

Precisely, it has you use those moves in platforming not in boss battles. The context is entirely different and because of that I think the game would've benefited from having a few more bosses (one of the few things Tooie does better in my opinion).

Flying around the earlier worlds is essentially completely different to what the final boss asks of you. I'm not saying the boss battle should've been changed, I'm just saying that the spike is too big and that they could've smoothed it over with a few more battles.

I feel like the game does teach you, even without having more actual boss fights. Let’s take your flying example here. In that particular part of the battle, it requires good precision to Beak Bomb Gruntilda as she flies around on her broomstick and dodging her spells as she throws them your way. Well the game teaches you the importance of precision Beak Bombing back in Freezeezy Peak when you have to Beak Bomb all of the Sir Slushes by accurately hitting the red ‘X’ on their top hats, all while being able to fly around and dodge their snowballs. Sounds familiar, doesn’t it? Albeit even more difficult imo as you have a smaller target to hit.

The portion of the fight when you have to hit Gruntilda with eggs after she temporarily stops throwing spells at you… guess what that is the equivalent of? It goes all the way back to Mumbo’s Mountain when you have to hit Conga with an egg, dodge his oranges, and then go right back to pelting him with more eggs.

The game teaches you with very similar scenarios throughout the adventure that gets utilized in that final battle. I don’t disagree that would it have been cool to have more boss battles sprinkled in somewhere, but the attention to detail that brings everything back full circle in the fight against Grunty is impressive.

 

[Vaenyr]

I feel like the game does teach you, even without having more actual boss fights. Let’s take your flying example here. In that particular part of the battle, it requires good precision to Beak Bomb Gruntilda as she flies around on her broomstick and dodging her spells as she throws them your way. Well the game teaches you the importance of precision Beak Bombing back in Freezeezy Peak when you have to Beak Bomb all of the Sir Slushes by accurately hitting the red ‘X’ on their top hats, all while being able to fly around and dodge their snowballs. Sounds familiar, doesn’t it? Albeit even more difficult imo as you have a smaller target to hit.

The portion of the fight when you have to hit Gruntilda with eggs after she temporarily stops throwing spells at you… guess what that is the equivalent of? It goes all the way back to Mumbo’s Mountain when you have to hit Conga with an egg, dodge his oranges, and then go right back to pelting him with more eggs.

The game teaches you with very similar scenarios throughout the adventure that gets utilized in that final battle. I don’t disagree that would it have been cool to have more boss battles sprinkled in somewhere, but the attention to detail that brings everything back full circle in the fight against Grunty is impressive.

Again, I'm not saying the game didn't have any of those teaching moments. I'm saying that the jump in difficulty is massive. Every single part of the final boss is orders of magnitude more difficult than the equivalent from the base game + you have to do everything at once in a hectic battle. And it's not even the only Rareware final boss that does stuff like that. We'll have to agree to disagree, because in my opinion the game introduces the concepts well, but doesn't teach the necessary parts well enough.

 

[CyberWolfBia]

None of the SNES DKC games are particularly hard... I didn't find that even as a kid. pretty standard difficult curve for platformers;

They are hard to complete, going for 100%, sure! But so is Yoshi's Island... and I don't see anyone wrongly attributing it a reputation of being a hard game.

In my opinion, only the Retro Studios games were designed purposely to be hard/challenging, because it was created this stigma on the the SNES trilogy, from god knows where; probably when the games got re-reviewed all over again on the Wii Virtual Console or maybe earlier with the GBA remakes. Not much different how badly Toys for Bob interpreted Crash's design philosophy doing their own take (when N. Sane Trilogy came out and all the articles were calling it the "Dark Souls of platformers"; honestly quite baffling to me)

EDIT: Also, Battletoads on NES is fun as heck! It is indeed bullshit hard, but giving you satisfying combat, with great sound design and hit-stun, goes a long way to make you endure the whole thing!

 

[JazzyFuture]

Came here to say, Fuck Poison Pond. That's one level in DKC1 where you can tell that they also made Battletoads.

 

[BassForever]

Honestly a lot of Battletoads isn't actually that brutal, it's just unforgiving with the limited lives and continues. Not to say the game isn't challenging, but it's less needing insane gaming skills and more just memorization of what's coming next. My preferred way to replay Battletoads in 2024 is with an unlimited lives codes, as the levels have pretty fair check points in them. When you're not forced to replay the same 2-3 sections over and over before getting more attempts at the spot you're stuck at, the game feels a lot more manageable. Rewinds can do this too, but they can be hard to use on bosses.

 

[Brock Reiher]

I like DKC but I wouldn’t consider it particularly hard. It’s pretty easy to go back and farm for lives and it has save points. The Retro DK games are much harder while also being fair (unlike the hard parts of DKC3).

 

[Professor Chops]

The first Donkey Kong Country has a few notorious difficulty spikes and moments of trial and error, but nothing as bad as Battletoads. That game is downright sadistic at times. Having direct feedback from Nintendo probably helped them create a more balanced—or rather, less unfair—game.

 

[Josh5890]

I haven't played NES Battletoads, but I can say that the Donkey Kong Country trilogy is very fair throughout. Getting 100% in the games is more difficult, especially DKC 1 where you could spend an hour experimenting on some levels before finding that last secret.

As for the Gruntilda fight, I found to be one of the best final boss fights of the N64 era. It makes you utilize every skill that you have learned to this point. My one complaint is that the ariel battle can be cumbersome. You have to aim with a slight delay at a moving object. It is one of the constraints from the first generation of 3D gaming.