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Discussion Is "Mario vs. Donkey Kong" a Mario spin-off or a DK spin-off?

Mario games or DK games?

  • Donkey Kong, obviously! The series is a spiritual successor to the arcade game!

    Votes: 58 48.3%

  • Mario, duh! Donkey Kong is barely on screen and his name wasn't even in the last Wii U one!

    Votes: 21 17.5%

  • Both. Cheap answer, but the Mario and DK franchises are weird like that.

    Votes: 41 34.2%
  • Total voters
    120
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Just a thought that came to mind. The first Mario vs. Donkey Kong started development as a remake of Donkey Kong '94, before becoming an original game that went on to become a series in its own right. Despite this, all the games still follow in the footsteps of the arcade original, where Donkey Kong was the villain who Mario had to stop. That being said, I never really hear these titles talked about as part of the Donkey Kong franchise. Instead, they're only really talked about as Mario puzzle games; or at least, that's the sense that I get. So I'm wondering how Fami sees it.

Are they mainly Donkey Kong games because they mirror the setup of the original games that started it all? Are they mainly Mario games because his name comes first and you're playing as him (or toy versions of him) for the entire game? Or can they not so easily be defined because of the weird relationship the two series have where Mario and DK almost function as spin-offs of each other in this bizarre shared universe... thing? What say you?
 
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All Mario games are spinoffs of Donkey Kong, and this is no exception. Yeah maybe it’s a Mario spinoff but that just makes it a Donkey Kong spinoff spinoff.
 
Donkey Kong arcade is the missing link that modern Donkey Kong and modern Mario are mutually descended from. This is something of a throwback offshoot of the evolutionary line, with some recognizable characteristics of the extant species, but more closely related to the original.

The real contentious opinion is that Donkey Kong is in fact a Mario game.
 
Lame answer, but kinda both and neither. The way I see it, "Donkey Kong", the arcade game, is the common ancestor to the Super Mario and Donkey Kong Country series. So the games that more directly follow up the arcade original (DK Jr, DK 3, DK '94, and the Mario vs DK games) are sorta just a third branch of a very convoluted family tree

If I had to group it with one or the other though, I'd probably go with "it's a Mario game because you play as Mario"; so like, in Smash for example, I'd say levels and music based on the arcade games and MvDK games should be classed as part of the Mario series and not the DK series)
 
My first experience with the Donkey Kong arcade game was in Donkey Kong 64 so I always associate the games that riff off the arcade game to be Donkey Kong games.

That said, I don’t really think about them that frequently with the other Donkey Kong games since you don’t play as Donkey Kong. I picked Donkey Kong for the poll, but yeah it’s weird lol.
 
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BlackthornOrion said:
Lame answer, but kinda both and neither. The way I see it, "Donkey Kong", the arcade game, is the common ancestor to the Super Mario and Donkey Kong Country series. So the games that more directly follow up the arcade original (DK Jr, DK 3, DK '94, and the Mario vs DK games) are sorta just a third branch of a very convoluted family tree
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I should have made this the third option.
 
I categorise it as a crossover. I guess that would be closest to the third poll option.
Not sure what you're referring to by "his name wasn't even in the last Wii U one"
 
It's both.

It's a Donkey Kong spinoff due the lineage of the Arcade game and DK'94, which MvDK is a direct sequel of.

It's a Mario SpinOff due of how it's mainly a Mario game, where you play as Mario himself, and is light on DK elements (other than, you know, the Arcade games).

... wish we could had an actual junction of Mario and DK themes, by the way.. it took until Mini Mario & Friends to get actual DKC references somewhere there
DonkeyKong4_amiiboChallenge.png

DiddyKong4_amiiboChallenge.png
 
My feelings on it are complicated.

Donkey Kong 94 feels to me like a true Donkey Kong game. It re-enacts the original arcade game then expands upon it in so many ways. The iconography is rooted in arcade DK with the inclusion of Pauline and DK Jr., even with an arcade cabinet border on Super GameBoy, and so much of the visual aesthetic that went beyond the arcade source material feels truly original like how every single random enemy was designed just for this game. I kind of appreciate that look into an alternate timeline of how Donkey Kong arcade wouldve evolved as a series if the Super Mario and DKC series never happened. I think it's also worth pointing out that while Mario is still the protagonist, Donkey Kong felt like the icon of this game too with him being front and center on the title screen and a center focus on the boxart.

Mario vs. Donkey Kong on the other hand feels like a game that much more strongly emphasized the "Mario" side of the equation. Gone are Pauline and DK Jr., in their place are an emphasis on collecting Mini Mario's. The game features tons of iconography from Super Mario Bros. like Toads, 1-Up Mushrooms, and some enemies like Boos, Bob-ombs, and Pirahna Plants. Yes the gameplay largely carries over from DK94, but when I look at the visuals it does not have that same arcade Donkey Kong style look to it.

Then of course after that first game, the Mario vs. Donkey Kong series went truly off the rails abandoning the puzzle platformer style established in DK94 in favor of a Lemmings style gameplay focused on Mini Mario's. Other than bringing back Pauline I felt like the series more and more progressed in terms of feeling more like a quirky Mario spinoff rather than something with a strong identity association with the old school Donkey Kong games.
 
Getting hung up on names and lineage for stuff like this feels like missing the point to me. I think if you made a poll in the "Donkey Kong Community" thread you'd have near unanimous appraisal that the classic arcade Donkey Kong games just aren't what they're looking for. Donkey Kong Country is its own thing that includes games that don't literally have the name "Country" in the game, like DK64, and the gameplay/vibes of games like Jungle Beat and DK Jungle Climber are much more fitting as well. I think a Donkey Kong Barrel Blast 2 would satisfy "Donkey Kong fans" more than Mario vs. Donkey Kong and that's more useful a distinction to me than whether we can classify it by lineage "a Donkey Kong game".
 
Stopdoor said:
Getting hung up on names and lineage for stuff like this feels like missing the point to me. I think if you made a poll in the "Donkey Kong Community" thread you'd have near unanimous appraisal that the classic arcade Donkey Kong games just aren't what they're looking for. Donkey Kong Country is its own thing that includes games that don't literally have the name "Country" in the game, like DK64, and the gameplay/vibes of games like Jungle Beat and DK Jungle Climber are much more fitting as well. I think a Donkey Kong Barrel Blast 2 would satisfy "Donkey Kong fans" more than Mario vs. Donkey Kong and that's more useful a distinction to me than whether we can classify it by lineage "a Donkey Kong game".
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For what is worth, me and @MondoMega considered the MvDK games when doing the timeline for the DK Community Thread. It's half starring Donkey Kong, so it's fits the criteria, even if barely.

And games prior DKC obviously are accounted for.

EDIT:

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CyberWolfBia said:
For what is worth, me and @MondoMega considered the MvDK games when doing the timeline for the DK Community Thread. It's half starring Donkey Kong, so it's fits the criteria, even if barely.

And games prior DKC obviously are accounted for.
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Fair I guess - but honestly actually "Mario is the main playable character" is probably an easy enough criteria to classify something as "not what a DK fan wants" and what really matters for what will satisfy fans looking for "the next Donkey Kong game".
 
what is a spinoff, what is a mario game, what is a donkey kong game
until we have answers for all three we will never be able to tell for sure
 
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Stopdoor said:
Fair I guess - but honestly actually "Mario is the main playable character" is probably an easy enough criteria to classify something as "not what a DK fan wants" and what really matters for what will satisfy fans looking for "the next Donkey Kong game".
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Oh for sure! Don't get me wrong, despite welcoming the sub-series as Donkey Kong games by technicality, I don't think they fulfil the role of actual Donkey Kong games where you play as DK (or other Kongs).

The description of a vague crossover is fine; it's like how the Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games titles are both Mario SpinOffs and Sonic SpinOffs, while being vaguely themed of each franchise lol
 
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🌳The first game is what I want as a fan of the monkey but that's about it and I don't think country fans would be happy.
 
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Donkey Kong -> Mario Bros -> Super Mario Bros
Donkey Kong -> Donkey Kong '94 -> Mario vs. Donkey Kong


Donkey Kong Country is it's own thing honestly
 
It’s part of the Mainline Donkey Kong series, of which both the Mario series and Donkey Kong Country Subseries are spinoffs.

However Mario vs DK starts the Mini Mario subseries.
 
The GBA game is definitely a continuation of the classic series, although with a few more Mario elements than the previous games, like Toads or some enemies like Thwomps.

All the Mini touch screen games however, are to me just Super Mario spin offs where DK is the antagonist for some reason, since they feature mostly just Super Mario themes, music enemies and characters and barely share anything with DK 94 or the arcade games, and the Country games might as well be on another timeline since they are almost never referenced on them.
 
While I agree with the majority that it is part of both franchises, has Nintendo every acknowledged any of the entries as part of the Donkey Kong series in any official capacity? I know they've acknowledged it as of the Mario series before.
 
APileofBananas said:
While I agree with the majority that it is part of both franchises, has Nintendo every acknowledged any of the entries as part of the Donkey Kong series in any official capacity? I know they've acknowledged it as of the Mario series before.
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www.nintendo.com

Barrel Blast into Nintendo’s Donkey Kong Hub!

Discover Donkey Kong games at Nintendo’s official Donkey Kong Hub.
www.nintendo.com www.nintendo.com

They have all of the mainline and Country subseries games here. Even Jr Math!

Edit: They are missing Jungle Beat but I guess that’s arguably a different sub series from Country.
 
It is more related to DK not Mario hence the low price. Mario games will not be cheap $50 experiences. They have prestige.
 
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I would have considered the first game a grey area, but this thread has convinced me that it's a Mario spinoff despite being a little more closely related to DK94.
 
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My opinion on the Mario/DK franchise debate is that all "Mario games" and "Donkey Kong games" are part of the greater "Mario franchise". The Mario franchise happened to start with the game Donkey Kong (which was mainly titled after its villain, mind you) and later evolved into the Super Mario series and its spin-offs/successors. Thus, all later games that star Donkey Kong - Country included - are just Mario spin-offs.

This whole debate kind of reminds me of these great videos by Jan Misali about "How many Super Mario games are there?"



 
In Nintendos own press releases for both the announcement of the Zelda movie and the new Mario movie, in their own about section they list several franchises they've created, in chronological order, starting with Mario, then DK, then Zelda. So the way I think Nintendo sees it is that Mario and DK are separate series, but they both share the 1981 DK game as their starting point. Considering both that and the fact that the game itself is a continuation of DK '94 and the original DK game, it is both a spiritual successor and crossover. DK gets lumped in as a "Mario universe" series because they do share continuity and it's just easier to say that instead of explaining the entire history of both series.
 
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It's the first major game in the mario series, it just happens to be named after the villain. That doesn't make it a donkey Kong series game.

Huge parts of the series don't involve DK at all but mario as the player character is always there
 
Linkstrikesback said:
It's the first major game in the mario series, it just happens to be named after the villain. That doesn't make it a donkey Kong series game.

Huge parts of the series don't involve DK at all but mario as the player character is always there
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Mario is the villain in the second game in the series, and isn’t present at all in the third. He was replaced by Stanley the Bug Man.
 
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Is the original Donkey Kong a 'Donkey Kong' game or a 'Mario' game?
Is Mario Kart 8 DX a 'Mario' game or a 'Mario Kart' game?

For me the game formula is more important to categorize a series than the characters themselves.

Mario vs Donkey Kong is clearly a continuation of the single screen action platform game typical of the original Donkey Kong for arcades (with its own spin).
Donkey Kong 3 is really the odd one from that 'franchise'.
 
Celine said:
Is the original Donkey Kong a 'Donkey Kong' game or a 'Mario' game?
Is Mario Kart 8 DX a 'Mario' game or a 'Mario Kart' game?

For me the game formula is more important to categorize a series than the characters themselves.

Mario vs Donkey Kong is clearly a continuation of the single screen action platform game typical of the original Donkey Kong for arcades (with its own spin).
Donkey Kong 3 is really the odd one from that 'franchise'.
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Mario is playable in the first Donkey Kong Arcade game, but he's not the protagonist. Donkey Kong (Sr.) is, he's the main draw of the game. Donkey Kong Jr. is a direct sequel and, again, the Kong is what the game is all about, and this time you play as an ape. -- Then, Donkey Kong 3, there's no Mario, but the main attraction is DK Sr. yet again.

Mario vs. Donkey Kong shares the mechanical lineage of the Arcade games, but for all the intends it's equal billing for both parties in the title, even if the game gets much more leaning to Super Mario Bros. elements. -- the later entries when the Mini Marios were the playable characters is where the themes dillute a little bit, but I say as long the titles keeps both Mario and Donkey Kong names, they account for both franchises. That's also why Mini Mario & Friends: amiibo Challenge wasn't accounted on our Community Thread as shown above... since they simply dropped both Mario and Donkey Kong entirely of the game and it's all about the Mini Toy versions of characters.
 
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I'm not sure, but what I am certain of is that the first one remains being the best one.

If I had to guess I'd probably say it's more Mario than DK. Ideally however I wish they would make a follow up the first game and make it a better blend of the two series.
 
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Even Donkey Kong himself was considered a Mario character until like 2016 when the marketing team restructured the brand. Mario v Donkey Kong is a Mario series.
 
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It’s both, while also being its own thing, like how the Mario & Sonic series is, well, both Mario and Sonic but also a different thing from either.
 
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It's a both kinda but really a sequel series to arcade DK games but with a modern Mario coat of paint. Though arguably more of Mario game now due to his lead status and actually incorporating modern Mario content unlike Modern DK content like things from country games
 
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BGBW said:
In Smash they put the music in the Mario section.

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Something changed around 2018. Prior to Smash Ultimate, Pauline and the Mini Marios were grouped under the Donkey Kong series, but they are now identified as Mario. Aside from the original arcade game, Donkey Kong Country is the Donkey Kong brand now.
 
I mean mario was playable in the original DK arcade game I don't think that classifies it as "really it's a MARIO game"

Maybe mario world should be named "Bowser World"

It's all so weird
 
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Smash Ultimate won't let you play the SMW medley song on the SMW stage because they labeled that stage as "Yoshi series" but the song as "Super Mario"

what I'm saying is that Smash is bullshit and always has been

don't look to it for concrete guidance on something as highly interpretive and haphazard as the branching web that is the Mario-Donkey Kong family of franchises

the messiness of it all(literally absorbing a completely non-Mario game, Doki Doki Panic, into itself at one point) is part of the appeal. it can and has been all sorts of things and this desire for a strict delineation of the boundaries of what it is and what it isn't only confuses rather than elucidates

especially as Nintendo is prone to change their minds on what matters and what doesn't from game to game if they think it might boost sales to do so

better to embrace the reality of it having always been a mess, because it will always be one
 
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