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Discussion ... if Mega Pokemon are BAD? ...

I don't mind the idea of a SUPER FORM since it's something that just fits Pokemon rather well, but I did not like the vast majority of those designs, and the few good ones felt like a waste to see them used as temp super forms instead of proper evolutions. I'm fine with them returning if they do return.
 
People love new forms for existing Pokémon. This is a concept that in Gen 7 evolved into one of the most exciting new addition (regional forms) which stayed since then (maybe convergent evolutions will too?).

So while the Megas are controversial and often ugly, they at least gave something to appreciate for both competitive players and collectors. Z-moves and Tera are boring as hell if you are not a competitive player and while Gigantamaxes had some new forms, they weren't that many and didn't have the same "new form" feeling for some reason
 
Mega form is like Super Saiyan. It's cool and I like it.
One day, Pokemon should like us do an Ash Ketchum. Equip EVERYTHING from Mega Evolution, Gigantamax, Terastallization and every gimmick in between.
It will be an absolute mess but it will be glorious.
 
Don't like them, personally.

The weaker mons that got them should probably have just received a regular evo if possible. The stronger mons feel a bit cheapened by them, even when they don't become meta defining threats.

Plus, I feel like they're too much dev work for how little they contributed to expanding the world of Pokémon? They're effectively a new monster, but they don't have a dex entry, and they can't interact with the other systems in the game outside of the battle-related ones. They feel very transient, and it's hard for me to form an attachment to them as a result.

I much prefer Z-moves and Terastalization, since they are just battle mechanics that don't really impact the monsters themselves in-universe that much.
 
I generally don't mind Lockstins content (even if he's a bit too much "smug YouTuber smarm" in the same space Matpat used to occupy), but I can only disagree with him on this.

Mega evolutions worked because of a three-pronged set of reasons (and I'll be ignoring M-Rayquaza, because fucking everyone did, that thing got banlisted harder than Meta Knight in Brawl):
  • The cool factor for weebs. Look at how many people to this date love Shadow Lugia, anime armoured Mewtwo and similar variations. Mega Evolutions are cool in that they "feel" like a fourth stage that is temporary, like going above and beyond. A lot of early stuff involving them also put a big focus on bond with trainer being what allows it (before Moon added some pointlessly edgy entries to make it all sound super painful, idk what was up with that). Z-Moves and Terrastal in particular have the problem of being unnecessarily goofy visually and that doesn't really help their popularity. (Dynamax doesn't have that issue, although I do find the animations a bit too tacky).
  • Helping counter power creep for some forgotten early Pokemon. Lockstin glosses over it as a joke, but for Pokemon like Beedrill it's a big boon. In at least one case, it's the only reason people talk about the Pokemon at all (which is Banette, which was clearly missing a third stage in the Hoenn games, being the designated ghost of the region. It had middling stats and M-Banette was pretty much the fix for that. Also for a fanart level, Banette is the big example I can think of where nobody draws regular Banette but M-Banette has plenty of it). This one isn't even the "filler flavor" reason; Megas just fixed up power creep in gen 6. I don't even recall them dominating the meta by that much even. They were present but not rampantly unbalanced, nor did they add a massive knowledge wall between the player and the game.
  • Doesn't just replace an entire part of the battle. It fits in very naturally with the design of the games. Mega evolutions replaced three things about a Pokemon: stats, ability and sometimes typing (but in a predefined way). It fits in well with the general movepool buffs Game Freak started being fond off when gen 5 released. Contrast with Z-Moves which replaced a move with a poorly scaled variant that's basically designed to force a Pokemon off the field. Dynamax was even worse; you needed to counter with a Dynamax to deal with it, it's story use was limited to ~15 battles, Gigantamax was impossible to add to your partner Pokemon before DLC and its associated with the awful Dynamax Raid system which was horrendous in SwSh. Terrastal feels like it's getting closer to being usable in gameplay (...if it weren't for Scarlet and Violets rehauled trainer system resulting in much fewer battles in which you'd choose to use it), except overriding the type system to let a Pokemon become any type just means the barrier between the Meta and casual play just becomes astronomous since for every Pokemon you now have to consider a bunch of extra variations.
Basically, Mega Evolutions felt designed like they were something that fits in with the overall pattern of the game design and that's why their removal stings much more. It also helped added flavor for some weird holes in early Pokemon typings - why is Charizard not a dragon type? Well there's Charizard X who is. Why does Mewtwo not really look like Mew? Well, Mega Mewtwo Y shows what it looks like if it was more psychic oriented and it's a bigger Mew (with Mega Mewtwo X showing it leaning more into the physical direction).
 
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Mega Pokemon are a cool concept, but imo Mega Rayquaza killed it mechanically speaking. They had very clear parameters under which they worked, and the moment you broke those rules it’s difficult to keep justifying the power creep.

My only complaint about Megas is that a lot of them fail to understand the ideas behind their evolutionary lines and are just “the previous Pokemon with more spikes”.
 
MarcelRguez said:
they don't have a dex entry,
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Just like Zygarde, this was something that was clearly unfinished in gen 6 and got addressed in Sun and Moon where they did get dex entries. A lot of the entries seem pretty horrific which makes the laissez-faire way the previous gen treated the way it affected Pokemon also feel unfinished. I appreciate Megas for that reason, it's not at all a clearcut good thing, in-universe, versus the other gimmicks that have been cooked up.
 
I love the concept but and it was super funny to see mons like Kangaskhan be absolutely broken, but they weren't balanced at all, leading to an opportunity cost issue where a lot of Megas just couldn't justify the single slot.
 
Metroid said:
Just like Zygarde, this was something that was clearly unfinished in gen 6 and got addressed in Sun and Moon where they did get dex entries. A lot of the entries seem pretty horrific which makes the laissez-faire way the previous gen treated the way it affected Pokemon also feel unfinished. I appreciate Megas for that reason, it's not at all a clearcut good thing, in-universe, versus the other gimmicks that have been cooked up.
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Ngl, I was reading Razgridz's post and scratching my head before you quoted me because I didn't remember dex entries being a thing at all for Megas. But if they were added in SuMo, it makes sense, since I was already drifting apart from Pokémon a bit by then.

I can see how that added bit might make it more interesting, at least!
 
Temp forms that we'll only get in non-competitive games now and only apply to select pokemon

Yea, I never liked megas
 
I never really liked them tbh. Felt a bit too Digimon having temporary super forms, and half of them feel like they should have just been normal evolutions (cross-gen evos almost entirely ending after Gen 4 is still a sore spot for me)

But I also don't like that, having added them, they immediately ditched them once gen 6 ended. it feels bad to have spent time raising a whole-ass pokemon built around a form that just gets perma-vaulted

And on top of that I think Pokemon pursuing a "what's the new super-gimmick this generation?" line of discard-and-draw mechanics was a long-term mistake. Up to that point it felt like most additions to the formula were fairly thought out and considered with an eye for the longer haul, but after Megas we got Z crystals, and dyna/gigantamaxing, and terrastalization(sp?) and they just all feel so prima facie disposable and ill-conceived because "yeah it's not the most robust idea, but it'll be gone by the next generation anyway so who really cares if it's good or not"
 
komicer said:
One day, Pokemon should like us do an Ash Ketchum. Equip EVERYTHING from Mega Evolution, Gigantamax, Terastallization and every gimmick in between.
It will be an absolute mess but it will be glorious.
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Gen 10, as a franchise and milestone celebration. Believe
 
As someone who really hasn't beaten a Pokemon game since Sapphire on the GBA, I don't find this or really anything Pokemon has been doing appealling whatsoever.
 
Prophet64 said:
As someone who really hasn't beaten a Pokemon game since Sapphire on the GBA, I don't find this or really anything Pokemon has been doing appealling whatsoever.
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Well be happy cause they aren’t doing it.

That’s the whole thing fans really want it back.
 
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Conceptually, all of them are super cool casually.
Competitively, every Pokemon getting the same Base Stat Total Increase and giving it to already very powerful Pokemon means giving it to weaker Pokemon like Beedrill means that, yeah, Beedrill is much better now, but the rich got richer.
 
komicer said:
Mega form is like Super Saiyan. It's cool and I like it.
One day, Pokemon should like us do an Ash Ketchum. Equip EVERYTHING from Mega Evolution, Gigantamax, Terastallization and every gimmick in between.
It will be an absolute mess but it will be glorious.
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Sometimes on r/smogon I see news from the Nat Dex formats, and it's always some shit like "DEOXYS ATTACK HAS BEEN QUICKBANNED FROM PU" and I think it'd be horrifying and funny as hell to make it the main format.
JazzyFuture said:
Conceptually, all of them are super cool casually.
Competitively, every Pokemon getting the same Base Stat Total Increase and giving it to already very powerful Pokemon means giving it to weaker Pokemon like Beedrill means that, yeah, Beedrill is much better now, but the rich got richer.
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In a number of those cases, like Garchomp, Tyranitar, Slowbro, the Latis and Scizor, people didn't really use those Megas because you'd be wasting your Mega slot on a Mega that isn't much of a huge improvement over the original. Not really a good idea to can the mechanic over it, especially now when it can help older Mons keep up with the absolutely ludicrous powercreep Gens 8 and 9 brought in, and Gen 10 likely will.
Prophet64 said:
As someone who really hasn't beaten a Pokemon game since Sapphire on the GBA, I don't find this or really anything Pokemon has been doing appealling whatsoever.
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Thank you for letting us know that you do not care.
 
robertman2 said:
In a number of those cases, like Garchomp, Tyranitar, Slowbro, the Latis and Scizor, people didn't really use those Megas because you'd be wasting your Mega slot on a Mega that isn't much of a huge improvement over the original. Not really a good idea to can the mechanic over it, especially now when it can help older Mons keep up with the absolutely ludicrous powercreep Gens 8 and 9 brought in, and Gen 10 likely will.
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But so can new evolutions. Well, for lines that don't already have three stages, at least. In fact they're an even better solution to power creep, because 1. they're permanent, 2. they let you use an item, making you even stronger, and 3. they don't come with the opportunity cost of losing out on all other megas, meaning you can use multiple at once. No one uses mega Audino, for example, over any other mega. They might if it was a normal evolution that didn't limit your teambuilding elsewhere though. And many of the underwhelming megas were worse than their regular counterparts due to lack of item. (Mega Scizor was actually quite popular, but it was due to added bulk; normal Scizor hit harder with the use of life orb or choice band)
 
one of the reasons they're bad is the ones that are cool and popular are locked to mega evolution. I don't see an inconsistency.

also most of the equivalent mechanics in later gens were worse which makes mega evolution better by comparison even if they aren't good.
 
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Megas are fine. I don't really buy into the idea that they "should have been proper evos instead," there's more than one way to skin a cat.
 
Megas and Gen 1 pandering are what got me back into the series if I'm being honest, so I like em. The video feels weirdly bitter that people are excited for something he doesn't like.
 
i didn't watch the video, but i am overall very much against these... gameplay... "improvements." not only do i think GF implemented the megas in a bad way, giving many to already incredibly strong pokemon for the sake of nostalgia alone, but i also just think it creates an insanely stupid advantage in gameplay. if it was something that could be entirely ignored, it wouldn't be as annoying, but just thinking about that forced mega evolution fight against that fighting gym leader in X/Y makes me roll my eyes. and forget battling a trainer who uses megas if you don't want to.

i also think they should've just given some of these pokemon real evolutions instead of megas. it feels like such a waste to have a temporary form for pokemon that don't even have a third evolution. in fact, temporary forms in general are just incredibly lame to me.

overall, i'm not excited for this to come back, if it does. i also haven't been impressed by any other gimmicks GF has shoehorned into the following games. please find a more interesting gameplay change other than nostalgia baiting or making pokemon stupidly large in battles, thanks!
 
rêverie said:
i didn't watch the video, but i am overall very much against these... gameplay... "improvements." not only do i think GF implemented the megas in a bad way, giving many to already incredibly strong pokemon for the sake of nostalgia alone, but i also just think it creates an insanely stupid advantage in gameplay. if it was something that could be entirely ignored, it wouldn't be as annoying, but just thinking about that forced mega evolution fight against that fighting gym leader in X/Y makes me roll my eyes. and forget battling a trainer who uses megas if you don't want to.

i also think they should've just given some of these pokemon real evolutions instead of megas. it feels like such a waste to have a temporary form for pokemon that don't even have a third evolution. in fact, temporary forms in general are just incredibly lame to me.

overall, i'm not excited for this to come back, if it does. i also haven't been impressed by any other gimmicks GF has shoehorned into the following games. please find a more interesting gameplay change other than nostalgia baiting or making pokemon stupidly large in battles, thanks!
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Why wouldn't they require megas in at least one battle in the game that introduced them?

They definitely gave it to some popular mons because those are fan favorites lol.
 
rêverie said:
if it was something that could be entirely ignored, it wouldn't be as annoying, but just thinking about that forced mega evolution fight against that fighting gym leader in X/Y makes me roll my eyes. and forget battling a trainer who uses megas if you don't want to.
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But... it can be ignored? Most in-game battles are really easy, and beating one of the few trainers that use megas without one yourself is not difficult as long as you are versed in type matchups. If you're talking competitive then sure you should probably use a mega, but it doesn't sound like you are

rêverie said:
please find a more interesting gameplay change other than nostalgia baiting or making pokemon stupidly large in battles, thanks!
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What about tera, it's quite an interesting mechanic I would say
 
pokemon that are complete unusable garbage like beedrill getting insane megas is one of the all-time most satisfying things ever conceived and i want more

that they minmaxed the actual fuck out of it for maximum increase was so fucking awesome

we need mega ledian so bad. just go exact opposite with it, take like 80bst off its attack stats, chunk everything into def, spdef and speed(especially, get it crazy fast), so you have this insane turbo speed bulk support mon ready to ruin the world
 
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Ab said:
Why wouldn't they require megas in at least one battle in the game that introduced them?

They definitely gave it to some popular mons because those are fan favorites lol.
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i mean yes, but that doesn't change the fact that i find it annoyingly shoehorned in lol.
Lord Azrael said:
But... it can be ignored? Most in-game battles are really easy, and beating one of the few trainers that use megas without one yourself is not difficult as long as you are versed in type matchups. If you're talking competitive then sure you should probably use a mega, but it doesn't sound like you are


What about tera, it's quite an interesting mechanic I would say
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it is heavily pushed in X/Y, basically being a part of the storyline. i haven't played X/Y in awhile so i don't remember what exactly i did, but i do remember them attempting to force it in battles. thankfully, the in-game battles aren't very hard ofc, like you said, but yea, it also does kinda ruin competitive play. though i don't care about that too much and i feel like people who do seem to like megas.

tera is definitely the best gimmick so far and if they carry any of them forward, i'd choose that. i just personally do not like temporary form or battle gimmick changes like that. since tera does only change type and not really form (other than the dorky headpiece), it feels less lame and less of a waste to me. hopefully tera means they're on the right track to switching up the gameplay formula instead of relying on nostalgia baiting like with megas or whatever the hell gigantimax was.
 
rêverie said:
it is heavily pushed in X/Y, basically being a part of the storyline. i haven't played X/Y in awhile so i don't remember what exactly i did, but i do remember them attempting to force it in battles. thankfully, the in-game battles aren't very hard ofc, like you said, but yea, it also does kinda ruin competitive play. though i don't care about that too much and i feel like people who do seem to like megas.
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Actually XY has barely any trainers encourage or use Mega Evolutions. There are exactly 3 main storyline fights in XY that use Megas: Korrina has you do a tutorial fight to explain the mechanic against her Lucario (while giving you also a Lucario of your own), Lysandre uses it in the fight against him to mega evolve his Gyarados and Diantha mega evolves her Gardevoir.

In the post-game you also get a fight against your rival where they mega evolve their Absol.

It's actually really weird because ORAS has way more involved mega evolutions in the main plot (evil team leader, your rival, Steven Stone, delta episode has Zinnia + the evil team admin not involved with the main story, the elite four rematches get Megas and finally Wally gets one in his final match when you clear a 50 streak on any "Super" format in the Maison.)
 
I don't have an affinity for mega evo one way or another. I like most of the designs, and it being a temporary limited to one Pokemon once per battle made it feel balanced in a way everything after doesn't. Out of all of those ideas, I'd prefer they move back towards megas but wouldn't hold my breath that they'll be a focus going forward.

Looking back, Z Moves were... I dunno. Felt like they existed more for the sake of an anime tie in. They seemed pointless to me. Gigantimax, same thing. It's essentially a mega evo, but big. Why? Even in the SwSh game canon it barely mattered that they were big beyond being a minor threat at the tail end (even though it wasn't because literally every leader could gigantimax so the wild gigantimax Pokemon were just whatever like regular wild Pokemon). People were just like "why are they big? Oh, magic crystals." Tera is at least interesting from a battle mechanic standpoint, because it opens up more typing options that otherwise would never be possible. I just personally am not a fan of decorating Pokemon with big crystalline hats but as a mechanic it's better than the previous two.

Damn, modern Pokemon really loves magic crystals .________.

I wouldn't get invested in looking forward to new megas because of the track record of moving from idea to idea quickly. When they announce new ones, like regional forms, cool. If they don't they don't -- because usually they're bringing something else into the mix. Guess what I mean is, when you have 1000 creatures ranging from common animals to mythical gods, then add in mega forms, choreographed power up dances/crystals, the ability to turn into a kaiju and change to literally any type by putting on a crystal hat, it doesn't feel as impactful overall.
 
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Razgriz said:
Actually XY has barely any trainers encourage or use Mega Evolutions. There are exactly 3 main storyline fights in XY that use Megas: Korrina has you do a tutorial fight to explain the mechanic against her Lucario (while giving you also a Lucario of your own), Lysandre uses it in the fight against him to mega evolve his Gyarados and Diantha mega evolves her Gardevoir.

In the post-game you also get a fight against your rival where they mega evolve their Absol.

It's actually really weird because ORAS has way more involved mega evolutions in the main plot (evil team leader, your rival, Steven Stone, delta episode has Zinnia + the evil team admin not involved with the main story, the elite four rematches get Megas and finally Wally gets one in his final match when you clear a 50 streak on any "Super" format in the Maison.)
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hmm, i suppose i crossed lines between ORAS and X/Y's use of megas, then. (the korrina fight is the main thing that i recalled as it was the most obvious one.) either way, point of the matter for me is that i do not like them, lol. and their use at all in that generation is one of the reasons (though, not the biggest) that i only played both of those games once and haven't touched them since.
 
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