Discussion I’ve realized a traditional story is way less important to me that atmosphere and world building.

[Phendrift]

You always get the question “gameplay or story.”

While I’m a gameplay first person for sure, I definitely don’t think it’s the only important thing about a game. But then I think about most of my favorite games - which barring like Metal Gear and Final Fantasy really DONT have traditional stories with character development and plot twists, so I thought about what makes them resonate emotionally so much.

And I really think that having a distinct atmosphere, a cool setting and scenario, and some worldbuilding is the “extra” I’m looking for in games in addition to the core gameplay.

For instance - Metroid Prime. There’s no linear plot happening around you, Samus doesn’t get a character arc. But it’s a therapeutic experience because they focus on laying the atmosphere thick to make you feel the connection with nature, assisted by the gorgeous art style and music, history fleshed out by wall etchings and computer logs you can read. It’s just as emotionally impactful on me as a traditional story if not more.

And lots of times this approach works better. When I see people say BotW2 needs a traditional story I’m like - why? The story in BotW was designed around the freedom the game offers you. A linear story is the antithesis of that and they shouldn’t sacrifice the marvel of game design they achieved just to give people one. Focus on the atmosphere and world itself, flesh it out with little side vignettes that you can do.

This is kind of a rant and I’m sure I didn’t say everything I wanted to but yeah. I think there’s room in the medium for really innovative ways to immerse people and ilicit an emotional reaction besides just a traditional story, which books and movies have already done.

 

[Mekanos]

I'm of two minds of it. There are series like Metroid that I don't expect a traditional narrative out of and am fine with the way they tell the story. With something like Zelda though I feel like the story has been good as an enhancement to the game. I don't play Zelda games for the "story " per se but the cutscenes and character/story beats can definitely add an extra paint of enjoyment, so BOTW's approach didn't really gel with me because I don't like the idea of going out of my way to get those character and story beats. It didn't ruin the game for me by any means but I think it would have definitely been doable to integrate the flashbacks in a progression-based manner. But it's not really a dealbreaker.

If the next mainline Final Fantasy game put its story and characters in the background I'd be much more disappointed, whereas if a Mario Odyssey sequel introduced a complex and multifaceted plot... well, I wouldn't reject it outright but it would be a bit offputting lol

So yeah I'd say overall for the most part I like game stories as a layer of flavor to the main course. Outside fo JRPGs, I can only think of a few series where if you mess with the story too much it gets dicey, MGS being the most obvious example.

 

[Lozjam]

Games are one of the few media that can actually tell a complete story without a linear trajectory.

I suppose regular art and music can, but you could not really do that in film or music. Because you really experience and interact with the world, that can really be a story in itself, and it can be what the players say in itself.

Breath of the Wild is brilliant because it tells its story mainly through gameplay.

I find people even discount the interactive stories in games like the Last of Us. When really, the story of Last of Us wouldn't have been nearly as good without the gameplay. The journey that the player goes through in both games, is really that thing that attaches people to the characters. Also, the hidden notes and atmosphere, and the piecing together what happened to an area previously as well, really sells the story in the game in a way that film cannot.

I guess, people are so really used to narrative dissonance, especially since technology used to primitive. For example, Final Fantasy 4's combat, doesn't really do too much to exemplify the plot. The best you can say, is the absence of party members is a part of that. It has moments of brilliance though, like Cecil's transformation, or Rhydia learning a certain kind of magic. But besides that, not really. The story is kind of separate of the gameplay.

Games today often times has this dissonance between their plot and gameplay too. It's why I really applaud the stories in a lot of Switch games nowadays.

Mario Odyssey with its wedding themes, and the build up to the end was really well done.

Splatoon has always had pretty good thematics as well.

Breath of the Wild, of course.

Fire Emblem 3 houses really sold the tactician angle in a way better way than any game in the series. Being the professor for your students is just amazing.

Xenoblade 2 really sold the whole Titan thing, and the whole mystery of the Architect/World Tree.

Metroid Dread, the gameplay is essential to the plot, and it's quite amazing.

Nintendo specifically has come so far from their Wii and Wii U days. I think it's the most overlooked thing as to why their games are so successful now. I think a few other studios do it great too. Naughty Dog with Last of Us, Capcom has been doing amazing at this, and I think modern Square Enix does a great job with it too

 

[GamerJM]

I don't usually care much about story outside of JRPGs (and even with those I care less than most people, Fire Emblem Fates is one of my favorite games and that game's is trash), but if a game does have a story that I'm going to care about I prefer it it's told through traditional means rather than environment and atmosphere. Metroid Prime really, really doesn't click with me.

 

[Doug Bowser Jr]

For me it's pretty clear that a bad story with good atmosphere usually leads to an enjoyable experience, but a good story with sterile atmosphere flat out can't. Think about the average Ubi game. Not that those stories are FANTASTIC by any means, but I don't remember any of them at all to even be able to tell.

The thing is defining atmosphere and personally I'd say it's the sense of place. Memorable map design, unique locations, good sound design and OST. You don't need to TELL a story, you can show it!

 

[Deleted member 2]

Games provide avenues for unique storytelling that a plot summary couldn't encapsulate.

 

[SammyJ9]

And lots of times this approach works better. When I see people say BotW2 needs a traditional story I’m like - why? The story in BotW was designed around the freedom the game offers you. A linear story is the antithesis of that and they shouldn’t sacrifice the marvel of game design they achieved just to give people one. Focus on the atmosphere and world itself, flesh it out with little side vignettes that you can do.

I know some people complain about the lack of story in BOTW, or that "all the good stuff happens in the past and I wish we were playing THAT story", etc., but personally I love the story in BOTW. It's actually kind of genius, yet simple, what Nintendo did to still give the game a plot while keeping it as open as they did. I can almost picture it being discussed in a meeting of some kind:

"We still want to have cutscenes and a story of sorts, but we want to have the game be 100% open and non-linear. So how do we do that?"
"Well, make the story (mostly) take place in the past, and the game starts with Link waking up from sleep and not remembering any of it."
"Okay, but then how do we tell that story to the player?"
"We can do it in flashbacks as you recover your memories around the world."
"But how do we know where the player will go, and when, so we can tell the story in the right order?"
"We don't. So we have all the memories Link can recover scattered around the world, and the player pieces them together out of order to form the full picture. We can even have the final, most important piece of the story be the 'reward' for finding the rest of them."
"So, we'll be telling an interesting story full of plot and character moments, but instead of being linked to completing tasks and missions, it'll be linked to the main theme of the game: exploring the world at your own pace, and how much of it you do, and how much you get out of it, is up to the player."
"Exactly!"

And this is just the memories, to say nothing of the environmental storytelling, journal entries, lore. and many other things that give you a sense of the plot of the game that you can encounter in the current time as well. I still say that BOTW has one of the best Zelda stories of all time, and it being done in such a simple yet perfect way for the game's structure only enhances that.

 

[Phendrift]

I know some people complain about the lack of story in BOTW, or that "all the good stuff happens in the past and I wish we were playing THAT story", etc., but personally I love the story in BOTW. It's actually kind of genius, yet simple, what Nintendo did to still give the game a plot while keeping it as open as they did. I can almost picture it being discussed in a meeting of some kind:

"We still want to have cutscenes and a story of sorts, but we want to have the game be 100% open and non-linear. So how do we do that?"
"Well, make the story (mostly) take place in the past, and the game starts with Link waking up from sleep and not remembering any of it."
"Okay, but then how do we tell that story to the player?"
"We can do it in flashbacks as you recover your memories around the world."
"But how do we know where the player will go, and when, so we can tell the story in the right order?"
"We don't. So we have all the memories Link can recover scattered around the world, and the player pieces them together out of order to form the full picture. We can even have the final, most important piece of the story be the 'reward' for finding the rest of them."
"So, we'll be telling an interesting story full of plot and character moments, but instead of being linked to completing tasks and missions, it'll be linked to the main theme of the game: exploring the world at your own pace, and how much of it you do, and how much you get out of it, is up to the player."
"Exactly!"

And this is just the memories, to say nothing of the environmental storytelling, journal entries, lore. and many other things that give you a sense of the plot of the game that you can encounter in the current time as well. I still say that BOTW has one of the best Zelda stories of all time, and it being done in such a simple yet perfect way for the game's structure only enhances that.

The only thing I’d really change is removing the big exposition dump the king gives you on the plateau, because that removes a LOT of the mystery that would’ve been gained as a reward from finding the memories. He basically sparknotes the entire memories story in the first area of the game.

But yes I agree, there’s nothing wrong at all with the style they chose to present BotW’s story

 

[AngryAlchemist]

The way I see it, and I'm generalizing a bit here, there's essentially two types of storytelling. Storytelling that focuses on why things happens and how it affects the plot. And storytelling that focuses on the emotional resonance or thematic impact of said thing.

Now obviously most video games make use of both forms of storytelling in some capacity, but in my many years of gaming, I've sort of come to the conclusion recently that all my problems with most story-heavy games come down to one thing:

Video games are not very good at focusing on the why. Video games, by enlarge, just don't benefit from the emphasis on explanations of events we never control, because video games as a medium are, by design, meant to be interpreted by the player and used for player expression. The input is the product, the output is the result, that's what makes a game a game. The connective tissue that makes stories work just isn't that interesting in a medium where the entire point is player interpretation and expression of the product. You can't create much of an interpretation out of events that are told to you in games, because those moments are usually written as exposition more than anything, and even if you can you can't do much with it that really engages with the mechanics of the game itself.

This isn't to say that no video game that has engaged in this style of storytelling has done it well. Or that linear storytelling is bad. I like Silent Hill 2 just as much as the next non-representative-of-the-general-gaming-public forum user. But I think video games are much better at thematic storytelling than anything.

That's because with themes, you usually are left thinking about the ideas represented long after you are finished playing the game. The themes kind of have a life of their own, and there's just as much player interpretation put into them as their is artistic expression from the creators. It becomes something beyond the scope of the game itself.

Of course, something that anyone who has ever taken a writing class will know is that pretty much all stories have themes to some extent, even the plot-heavy ones that I'm saying don't suit games much. But honestly ... I can rarely think of plot-heavy games that have memorable themes. And this is sort of the problem and mostly what I'm getting at. I can't really remember the last time a big studio who focused a lot on making a very good game story, made a memorable theme to match. It's like people are so focused on writing these tightly-knit intricate story pieces that can match up to movies (yes, the movie comparison finally comes out! how cliche!), but in doing so that's all they focus on. And it's usually not even stories that would be considered that impressive in other mediums like books or movies, that's what really kills it, the final nail in the coffin. I can't imagine a lot of game stories that get praised for their narrative would actually get praised if they were originally made as books or movies. And this is in a medium that is already less suited for this style of storytelling than other mediums.

Games just aren't very good at putting emphasis on things happening, rather than focusing on why that is thematically interesting. If I wanted to watch things happen without any kind of player expression or interpretation, yes, I'd probably pick a medium a lot more linear than games. Cough cough

 

[SammyJ9]

The only thing I’d really change is removing the big exposition dump the king gives you on the plateau, because that removes a LOT of the mystery that would’ve been gained as a reward from finding the memories. He basically sparknotes the entire memories story in the first area of the game.

But yes I agree, there’s nothing wrong at all with the style they chose to present BotW’s story

I can kind of see your point, but IMO that's what makes BOTW's story so good: It's really a character story, specifically about Zelda herself. The tragic events of the past, and knowing they happen, isn't really that important. What really gets you invested, and really makes you feel, is seeing Zelda's story play out: Her not being able to use her powers, her struggle with being a Princess vs. wanting to be a scholar, her trying to use her research and knowledge to save the day, her repeated failure to awaken to her power and how much it's beating her down inside while she tries to put on a brave face, is the story of the game, at least to me. The culmination of her storyline, of how she goes to her lowest place and breaks down emotionally, only to finally awaken her powers in the end and be the one who saves Link and manages to hold off Ganon for 100 years, is excellent. It's HER story, really. Without her, Link dies and everything fails. Saving the world requires both her AND Link working together.

This is why I really really hope that Zelda isn't reduced to damsel status in BOTW2. She deserves so much more than that.

(it's also why I REALLY hate what they did to her character arc in Age of Calamity. But, that's an entirely different topic )

 

[Phendrift]

The way I see it, and I'm generalizing a bit here, there's essentially two types of storytelling. Storytelling that focuses on why things happens and how it affects the plot. And storytelling that focuses on the emotional resonance or thematic impact of said thing.

Now obviously most video games make use of both forms of storytelling in some capacity, but in my many years of gaming, I've sort of come to the conclusion recently that all my problems with most story-heavy games come down to one thing:

Video games are not very good at focusing on the why. Video games, by enlarge, just don't benefit from the emphasis on explanations of events we never control, because video games as a medium are, by design, meant to be interpreted by the player and used for player expression. The input is the product, the output is the result, that's what makes a game a game. The connective tissue that makes stories work just isn't that interesting in a medium where the entire point is player interpretation and expression of the product. You can't create much of an interpretation out of events that are told to you in games, because those moments are usually written as exposition more than anything, and even if you can you can't do much with it that really engages with the mechanics of the game itself.

This isn't to say that no video game that has engaged in this style of storytelling has done it well. Or that linear storytelling is bad. I like Silent Hill 2 just as much as the next non-representative-of-the-general-gaming-public forum user. But I think video games are much better at thematic storytelling than anything.

That's because with themes, you usually are left thinking about the ideas represented long after you are finished playing the game. The themes kind of have a life of their own, and there's just as much player interpretation put into them as their is artistic expression from the creators. It becomes something beyond the scope of the game itself.

Of course, something that anyone who has ever taken a writing class will know is that pretty much all stories have themes to some extent, even the plot-heavy ones that I'm saying don't suit games much. But honestly ... I can rarely think of plot-heavy games that have memorable themes. And this is sort of the problem and mostly what I'm getting at. I can't really remember the last time a big studio who focused a lot on making a very good game story, made a memorable theme to match. It's like people are so focused on writing these tightly-knit intricate story pieces that can match up to movies (yes, the movie comparison finally comes out! how cliche!), but in doing so that's all they focus on. And it's usually not even stories that would be considered that impressive in other mediums like books or movies, that's what really kills it, the final nail in the coffin. I can't imagine a lot of game stories that get praised for their narrative would actually get praised if they were originally made as books or movies. And this is in a medium that is already less suited for this style of storytelling than other mediums.

Games just aren't very good at putting emphasis on things happening, rather than focusing on why that is thematically interesting. If I wanted to watch things happen without any kind of player expression or interpretation, yes, I'd probably pick a medium a lot more linear than games. Cough cough

Great post, I pretty much agree with everything said here. Like I know people get mad when you call out “movie games” but I think there’s some truth that the need to imitate other mediums can kinda hold games back from the true potential they have as a UNIQUE storytelling medium.

I can kind of see your point, but IMO that's what makes BOTW's story so good: It's really a character story, specifically about Zelda herself. The tragic events of the past, and knowing they happen, isn't really that important. What really gets you invested, and really makes you feel, is seeing Zelda's story play out: Her not being able to use her powers, her struggle with being a Princess vs. wanting to be a scholar, her trying to use her research and knowledge to save the day, her repeated failure to awaken to her power and how much it's beating her down inside while she tries to put on a brave face, is the story of the game, at least to me. The culmination of her storyline, of how she goes to her lowest place and breaks down emotionally, only to finally awaken her powers in the end and be the one who saves Link and manages to hold off Ganon for 100 years, is excellent. It's HER story, really. Without her, Link dies and everything fails. Saving the world requires both her AND Link working together.

This is why I really really hope that Zelda isn't reduced to damsel status in BOTW2. She deserves so much more than that.

(it's also why I REALLY hate what they did to her character arc in Age of Calamity. But, that's an entirely different topic )

Yeah I remember reading complaints about Age of Calamity. I see where they’re coming from but it IS a different take on BotW’s story and I do think Zelda has some great moments in it. It downplayed the jealousy aspect of her character that was interesting in BotW, but I liked seeing her step up and become a leader commanding like 5 armies by the end of the game, imo it was just a different arc. Though honestly I’ve forgotten lots of the nitty gritty of AOC’s story after a year so I may be wrong or misinterpreting

 

[Phendrift]

I'm of two minds of it. There are series like Metroid that I don't expect a traditional narrative out of and am fine with the way they tell the story. With something like Zelda though I feel like the story has been good as an enhancement to the game. I don't play Zelda games for the "story " per se but the cutscenes and character/story beats can definitely add an extra paint of enjoyment, so BOTW's approach didn't really gel with me because I don't like the idea of going out of my way to get those character and story beats. It didn't ruin the game for me by any means but I think it would have definitely been doable to integrate the flashbacks in a progression-based manner. But it's not really a dealbreaker.

If the next mainline Final Fantasy game put its story and characters in the background I'd be much more disappointed, whereas if a Mario Odyssey sequel introduced a complex and multifaceted plot... well, I wouldn't reject it outright but it would be a bit offputting lol

So yeah I'd say overall for the most part I like game stories as a layer of flavor to the main course. Outside fo JRPGs, I can only think of a few series where if you mess with the story too much it gets dicey, MGS being the most obvious example.

A bit off topic but one thing I love about MGS is that it absolutely tries to be a movie in the cutscenes and imitate Hollywood in lots of ways.

BUT contrary to other story heavy games, MGS has literally ZERO problems embracing “gamey-ness.” Recent naughty dog or rockstar games, for example, aim to feel grounded and that’s reflected in animations and gameplay, almost like they want to distance themselves from being a game (I know that’s not the case I just can’t think of another way to describe it).

MGS has tons of cool tricks and sandbox gameplay that don’t feel anchored to the story and defy reality, fun Easter eggs that aren’t “realistic” which sometimes even play into the story (MGS2 arsenal gear 4th wall breaking segment). Even with hours of cutscenes, I always got the vibe that MGS was confident in presenting itself as a video game ass video game, the gameplay and level design always focused on being fun as hell first and foremost despite the crazy story and cutscenes that happened around it. I don’t get that with lots of other cinematic games.

 

[SammyJ9]

Great post, I pretty much agree with everything said here. Like I know people get mad when you call out “movie games” but I think there’s some truth that the need to imitate other mediums can kinda hold games back from the true potential they have as a UNIQUE storytelling medium.

Yeah I remember reading complaints about Age of Calamity. I see where they’re coming from but it IS a different take on BotW’s story and I do think Zelda has some great moments in it. It downplayed the jealousy aspect of her character that was interesting in BotW, but I liked seeing her step up and become a leader commanding like 5 armies by the end of the game, imo it was just a different arc. Though honestly I’ve forgotten lots of the nitty gritty of AOC’s story after a year so I may be wrong or misinterpreting

I could write something up about why I feel like AoC completely destroyed Zelda's character and growth from the original game (along with pretty much everything else that made the original story good) and, especially, how they ruined her big 'stand up and cheer' moment. But this isn't really the thread for that, so I will hold back. Plus it'd mostly just be me being overly negative, and I don't want to go on a too-long rant about how massively disappointed I was in AoC, since I know it's a perfectly fine game that a lot of people like.

 

[Mr. Tiddles]

I don't even like calling it "traditional story", I think some games are just too obsessed with cutscenes. I think you can tell an amazing story with very minimal use of cutscenes.