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Discussion Hot Take: 'Indie Games' today are really just the modern version of Flash Games. Except they're not free.

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Remember Flash games? I'm not that old. They old died out....TEN YEARS AGO!?

But once upon a time, people used to make tons of free flash games for people to play online. They were cheap, they were janky, but occasionally fun. And sometimes impressive!

With Adobe Flash and shockwave dead, those adolescent game development urges had to be let out somewhere. And steam greenlight was perfect for this, wasn't it? And with modern development tools making it easier than ever to program a proper game instead of using Flash, they are usually put together just a bit better.


Don't believe me? Goat Simulator. Deer Simulator. 90% of the steam library. All those super-janky games. They may be fun, but the spirit of Adobe Flash lives on, even if it now costs money!

Incidentally, there is a reason why I usually don't bother considering most indie games when talking about the state of certain genres. 10 years ago nobody tried claiming that shmups were alive even though there were more shoot-em-up flash games than you could shake a stick at. In the same sense, I really don't care about indie RPG maker game #6969.
 
(1) There are tons of free indie games
(2) They're way higher quality than the flash games of years past.
(3) This all seems like a roundabout way to justify disregarding a huge swathe of the market because of who made them or the kind of budget they're made under, which is just silly at every level.

Also, ten years ago, shoot em ups were very much alive. The practical long running face of the genre, Touhou, has been trucking along for longer than I can remember without looking up dates. 10 years ago, sony chose to launch the Ps4 with one of the most notable launch PS4 exclusive titles being a shoot-em-up, in Resogun.
 
Generalising indie development as comparable to ‘flash games but not free’ or ‘adolescent game development urges’ seems like beyond a hot take, it’s just insulting.

I’ve played plenty of indie games that were amongst the best or even the best in their genre in their year of release.

As for the ‘not free’ element, I’d rather pay a developer who spends years working on a game what their time is worth for the final product (if it seems like something I’ll enjoy) than complain it’s not free, as that’s what gets you free-to-start stuff loaded with micro transactions, lootboxes and gacha from the bigger multinationals these days instead.

We have indie developers as fami members before anyone else feels like dropping a similar take.
 
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I feel like most claims of "genre x is dead" are brought up by AAA companies not wanting to invest into something that doesn't bring them as much money as the latest skinner box casino game that's pretending to be a game.
 
I can not express in words how wrong you are. I'll let this one slide.

But this is a bad thread. Bad bad bad.
 
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I could’ve understand your point (not really agreeing with it, but understanding it) fifteen years ago, but since then a single dude with a computer was able to create a better Harvest Moon than Harvest Moon ever did ; a girl with the gall a computer made a 2D platformer that was able to rival the quality of a Mario game and secure a nomination for GOTY at the game awards. Yes, most shovelware on Steam is de facto « indie », but indie games are not all shovelware. And non-free shovelware existed before and during the Flash games era.

Also, should noted that Goat Simulator is not indie, it’s published by an Embracer Group studio.
 
Can't believe I'm taking the obvious bait. All I'll say is that this doesn't even apply to mid 2000's freeware built in GameMaker, let alone Hades. Why did you think you should share your opinion on indie games if you clearly haven't even played one?
 
meatbag said:
I cannot fathom living through the Flash game era and thinking the general quality of those games are somehow comparable to modern indie games. Have you even been to Newgrounds?
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In defense of flash games, there were definitely at least a handful that were notable. Meat boy started as a flash game, as did Alien hominid, and I have no idea how the Adventure quest team put together such a flash project without it entirely imploding in on itself way back then, though they were also far more sparse than the indie games of nowadays.

I think binding of isaac was also a flash game at one point? I think they ended up having to remake it for the console versions though.
 
The funny thing about this thread is that it's insulting to both Flash and modern Indie games :^)
 
Ouch, while I love the age of flash games, comparing them to the entirety of the indie game scene betrays a big misunderstanding of what Indie games can offer and how they might be made.

I just cannot rhyme the 2

Topics like these make me believe the indie scene hasn't managed to reach the market it could reach at all, I am therefore glad an effort is made by some companies/groups to give them their own spotlight. There is still a lot of work to be done though.
 
k samedi said:
Hollow Knight is one of the best metroidvania I played and I don't think it should have been free. In theory you may be right but why should they be free?
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It’s a bit bloated but it stands up to any Metroidvanias(indie or not) ever made in my eyes so I agree.

It was a steal at its initial price.
 
Linkstrikesback said:
In defense of flash games, there were definitely at least a handful that were notable.
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Oh sorry, I didn’t mean to put down Flash games. I’ve played and loved my fair share of them (Impossible Quiz, Fancy Pants, The Last Stand, Alien Hominid, etc.). I just think that there’s far more good indie games than there are good Flash games.

Linkstrikesback said:
I think binding of isaac was also a flash game at one point? I think they ended up having to remake it for the console versions though.
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Yep! The Flash version is the first time I played Binding of Isaac actually.
 
There's a difference between a hot take and a blatantly insulting generalized jab at actual real people, gosh.
 
You know what? While I don’t like the implication that the comparison is apt because of lower quality content available in the respective categories (that’s always been true of all sectors of gaming), or the idea that indie games are just monetizing a tier of gaming that used to be free, I’ll give some slight acknowledgement of the comparison on the basis that a lot of Flash games were actually great, especially for their time, and the lower barrier to entry for both gave us a lot of experimental and creative experiences.

Basically, give some respect to flash games.
 
Feels like a troll thread.

Sure there are some indie games that aren't super high quality but if you were being reductive you could throw janky and low-quality as descriptors for a host of AA or AAA titles recently as well so not sure what the differentiator is here.
 
Looking at great indie titles like Celeste, Get in the Car Loser!, and Spare Parts, and upcoming classics like Bloodborne Kart and Susan Taxpayer, the conclusion is clear: OP hates to see Yeag Girls thrive
 
Why do movie studios even bother making movies like Kong Vs Godzilla when Nerwgrounds already gave us stuff like this?



Clearly movies are just flash cartoons but more expensive.
 
If flash games then were as good as indie games now I never would have spent money at Gamestop.

Also, we have some indie developers in this community. Maybe don’t diminish their work.
 
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Wtf are you talking about? Like genuinely, what is the shitty ass take? They're not even remotely comparable.
 
I'll be a bit nicer to OP and simply say that you are mistaken

it's just a misinfomed take, I don't think we all need to gang up on them
 
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If you mean hollow knight, yes. I find the art closer to flash art. But in general, no even close to what indie games are.
 
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You know, I'll give OP some slack. This isn't even the worst indie game take I've seen this week.
 
JazzPotatoes said:
Why do movie studios even bother making movies like Kong Vs Godzilla when Nerwgrounds already gave us stuff like this?



Clearly movies are just flash cartoons but more expensive.
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What's Neil C been working on lately? His last album came out like 3 years ago. Why is he hiding his genius from us?
 
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Ice Cold Take:

"Indie Game" as a category simply describes games developed independently of a publisher's direct influence and does not denote quality, development tools, game size, team size, price, genre, style, general vibe, or otherwise.

Both modern indie titles and Flash games of old come in varying qualities and prices. Flash games might have generally been indie, but not all indie games are analogous to Flash software. You can still find games available for free, even browser-based, perhaps even in a nostalgic Flash style, and those are the modern day take of what you're thinking of.

You also seem to have shovelware in mind, and that has a long and glorious tradition of being paid. May I direct your attention, perhaps, to the Wii's reputation?
 
Uhhhhhh.......Considering the thousands of hours people put into their games, this is just super insulting to their work. Painting Indie games in a wide swath of any sort is a really misinformed take.
 
honestly people in general, including in this thread, really underrate how important flash games were for the trajectory of contemporary indie & mobile games. I actually don't think it's inaccurate at all to conceptualize present-day indie games as a continuation of the flash game era—flash games were an early way for individuals and small teams to inexpensively develop and widely distribute games.
because of that low barrier to entry and access we got, yes, lots of silly and edgy and trashy stuff (which imo has its own historical significance) but also loads of interesting experimental ideas that couldn't have been made or reached nearly as wide of an audience without flash software & huge sites like Armor Games or Kongregate. indie devs like Ed McMillen or Bennett Foddy whose games these days sell millions of copies started out making genuinely interesting flash projects, and stuff like infinite runners that are so popular on mobile originated with Adam Saltsman's Canabalt. and there were plenty of people making cool stuff that undeniably influenced lots of contemporary indie games, like Gregory Weir's stuff which I've always loved

so yeah I agree that, at least some of the time, "indie games today are... the modern version of flash games." they just have a much wider audience, a wider range of studio sizes and budgets, and new funding models (including, most commonly, Not Being Free) with which developers are able to support themselves—and I think that's generally a very good thing for the medium. "the spirit of Adobe Flash lives on"—hell yeah
 
If anything I feel like most indie games are severely undervalued. I once saw Cosmic Star Heroine on sale for something ridiculous like $2 which is just sad.
 
slide's said:
honestly people in general, including in this thread, really underrate how important flash games were for the trajectory of contemporary indie & mobile games. I actually don't think it's inaccurate at all to conceptualize present-day indie games as a continuation of the flash game era—flash games were an early way for individuals and small teams to inexpensively develop and widely distribute games.
because of that low barrier to entry and access we got, yes, lots of silly and edgy and trashy stuff (which imo has its own historical significance) but also loads of interesting experimental ideas that couldn't have been made or reached nearly as wide of an audience without flash software & huge sites like Armor Games or Kongregate. indie devs like Ed McMillen or Bennett Foddy whose games these days sell millions of copies started out making genuinely interesting flash projects, and stuff like infinite runners that are so popular on mobile originated with Adam Saltsman's Canabalt. and there were plenty of people making cool stuff that undeniably influenced lots of contemporary indie games, like Gregory Weir's stuff which I've always loved

so yeah I agree that, at least some of the time, "indie games today are... the modern version of flash games." they just have a much wider audience, a wider range of studio sizes and budgets, and new funding models (including, most commonly, Not Being Free) with which developers are able to support themselves—and I think that's generally a very good thing for the medium. "the spirit of Adobe Flash lives on"—hell yeah
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I think this is the more educated way of saying the thing that OP's post is about and I agree with it. I don't like the way OP's post feels the need to disparage games instead of celebrating them.
 
EtherPenguin said:
If anything I feel like most indie games are severely undervalued. I once saw Cosmic Star Heroine on sale for something ridiculous like $2 which is just sad.
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Yeah one of my favorite indie games from the last couple years (Mystia's Izakaya) is a whole $6 for the base version when it's full-price, and it regularly goes on sale for $2-3. And you can easily get hundreds of hours in it on account of the format.
 
The majority of flash games couldn't lick the boot of most mediocre indie games. That isn't to say there weren't great flash, but the majority of them were absolutely dog shit. Even the good ones were often really short and more a clever proof of concept or a unique 15 minute gimmick and nothing something you could charge $5-$10 for.

Edit: In retrospect the above comment is far too harsh and critical of flash games and their developers as a whole. I've struck it out but will not delete it for posterity's sake.

The modern version of flash games is Pico-8, which you can play for free on their website, or pay $15 to get a desktop/portable gaming device version of.
 
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slide's said:
honestly people in general, including in this thread, really underrate how important flash games were for the trajectory of contemporary indie & mobile games. I actually don't think it's inaccurate at all to conceptualize present-day indie games as a continuation of the flash game era—flash games were an early way for individuals and small teams to inexpensively develop and widely distribute games.
because of that low barrier to entry and access we got, yes, lots of silly and edgy and trashy stuff (which imo has its own historical significance) but also loads of interesting experimental ideas that couldn't have been made or reached nearly as wide of an audience without flash software & huge sites like Armor Games or Kongregate. indie devs like Ed McMillen or Bennett Foddy whose games these days sell millions of copies started out making genuinely interesting flash projects, and stuff like infinite runners that are so popular on mobile originated with Adam Saltsman's Canabalt. and there were plenty of people making cool stuff that undeniably influenced lots of contemporary indie games, like Gregory Weir's stuff which I've always loved

so yeah I agree that, at least some of the time, "indie games today are... the modern version of flash games." they just have a much wider audience, a wider range of studio sizes and budgets, and new funding models (including, most commonly, Not Being Free) with which developers are able to support themselves—and I think that's generally a very good thing for the medium. "the spirit of Adobe Flash lives on"—hell yeah
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Agreed! I would add that the freeware scene and the romhacking scene were the other major pillars of the mid-2000's indie movement that along with Flash led to the modern indie renaissance. There was heavy overlap between all three, of course.
 
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