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Pre-Release Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (2024) — Pre-release Discussion Thread (UPDATE: launch trailer, see threadmarks)

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While I think the backtracking complaints with TTYD are a bit overstated, I think adding back in PM64's spin or a dedicated run button would be a good QOL addition to deal with those complaints regardless.
I've been playing PM64 all day to refresh myself on how the game is designed and it's really remarkable just how much the spin cuts down on everything. I've managed to knock out almost 6 chapters in one day simply because the game permits fast movement and backs it with solid chapter design; even some of the more backtrack prominent chapters like the Toy Box and Flower Field are made a pittance compared to how much downtime you get in TTYD.
 
I've gone back and forth on making a thread comparing PM64 to TTYD for quite a while now since I feel the latter's reputation as a straight upgrade isn't really fair to the former (almost did it after a playthrough on NSO, might get to it after TTYD comes out), and level design is a decent chunk of why. 64 is far more varied in ideas and structure when it comes to traversal areas between towns and... dungeons, for lack of a better term. Everywhere in TTYD is just a straight line - Petal Meadows, Boggly Woods, Twilight Trail, Keelhaul Key - which is just not a good idea with how every single area also has you backtrack (often more than once).

Even though I prefer PM64, I feel TTYD is at its strongest in chapters 3 and 6, when it diverges the most from the formula established in the original. It's telling for me that my favorite parts of the game are the ones that don't actually have traditional Paper Mario 'levels', or whatever they should be called. They just weren't that well done this time around imo.


SS does top TWW in dungeon count, and honestly, I'd be curious to see how total land mass compares. But yeah - they took a denser, more vertical approach to level design, and the combat philosophy demanded more care put into the enemy design, which resulted in less vast areas and enemy variety.
Yeah, it’s been so long since I replayed any of these games I really should dip back into it on NSO before TTYD comes out. I can see what you mean by the comparison kind of being unfair to 64.

As a kid I vastly preferred TTYD and still hold it more dear because I liked its more unique characters, settings and story (and I also do think the battle system is a straight upgrade, which is arguably the meat of these games), but I wonder how I’ll react over a decade later.

In terms of the “overworld” areas, I generally agree. Boggly Woods, Petal Meadows, Excess Express, Keelhaul Key are all extremely linear. I remember Dry Dry Desert and Flower Fields feeling way more sprawling. I do remember “dungeons” like Hooktail Castle, the Boggly Tree, Pirate’s Grotto, Riverside Station, X-Naut Fortress and of course the Palace of Shadow being better on that front though.
 
Wind Waker has Dragon Roost Caverns, Forbidden Woods, Tower of the Gods, Forsaken Fortress, Earth Temple, Wind Temple, and Ganon's Tower. Skyward Sword has Skyview Temple, Earth Temple, Lanayru Mining Facility, Ancient Cistern, Sandship, Fire Sanctuary, and technically Sky Keep. That's even at worst, though I personally don't consider Sky Keep to be a dungeon in any meaningful sense with only 8 rooms and no map, compass, boss, item, heart container... Not sure what separates it from Pirate Stronghold or something.

Skyward Sword would win in total land mass no question though, Wind Waker islands are tiny.
I counted TWW several times to be sure but my brain was incapable of remembering the Tower of the Gods and Ganon's Tower at the same time lol. That's said, I personally prefer the Sky Keep to Ganon's Tower a fair bit. It still does lead right into the final boss gauntlet sequence too, it's just not in the dungeon itself.

Yeah, it’s been so long since I replayed any of these games I really should dip back into it on NSO before TTYD comes out. I can see what you mean by the comparison kind of being unfair to 64.

As a kid I vastly preferred TTYD and still hold it more dear because I liked its more unique characters, settings and story (and I also do think the battle system is a straight upgrade, which is arguably the meat of these games), but I wonder how I’ll react over a decade later.

In terms of the “overworld” areas, I generally agree. Boggly Woods, Petal Meadows, Excess Express, Keelhaul Key are all extremely linear. I remember Dry Dry Desert and Flower Fields feeling way more sprawling. I do remember “dungeons” like Hooktail Castle, the Boggly Tree, Pirate’s Grotto, Riverside Station, X-Naut Fortress and of course the Palace of Shadow being better on that front though.
Do it! PM64 has aged fantastically imo. Though it might not be a great idea if you get series fatigue lol.

I have my thoughts on the combat differences, but I'd definitely rather play TTYD all the way through again before articulating that.

The dungeons I feel are about on par between the two, with perhaps a slight edge to TTYD for getting more unique. There's not much to speak on with regards to design philosophy though since there isn't really a consistent trend through either game, at least that I've identified - though PM64 actually has a slightly more linear tendency here.
 
This game is GORGEOUS. I hope this sets the standard for the art style of Paper Mario going forward. It's the perfect realization of the original PM64 Pop-Up Book Style with Origami King-level papercraft. I also love how the characters have a nice white sheen instead of an outline and how they are composed of multiple animated limbs pasted onto each other. I was not a fan of Color Splash's choppy animations.
 
Yeah, it’s been so long since I replayed any of these games I really should dip back into it on NSO before TTYD comes out. I can see what you mean by the comparison kind of being unfair to 64.

As a kid I vastly preferred TTYD and still hold it more dear because I liked its more unique characters, settings and story (and I also do think the battle system is a straight upgrade, which is arguably the meat of these games), but I wonder how I’ll react over a decade later.

In terms of the “overworld” areas, I generally agree. Boggly Woods, Petal Meadows, Excess Express, Keelhaul Key are all extremely linear. I remember Dry Dry Desert and Flower Fields feeling way more sprawling. I do remember “dungeons” like Hooktail Castle, the Boggly Tree, Pirate’s Grotto, Riverside Station, X-Naut Fortress and of course the Palace of Shadow being better on that front though.
Yeah, I love TTYD's unique locations, characters, writing, it's refined and improved battle system, but I do prefer 64's world structure, interconnectedness and level design. And yeah, the spin dash. Plus I have a heap more nostalgia for 64. It has a huge amount of charm. Both fantastic games, but I do think 64 often gets overlooked.
 
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I see all this talk about Sticker Star and Origami King. I will now replay both games and see for myself whether They still share the same traits in comparison to both the og Paper Mario games, games I can dream at this point.

Well fact remains that both these games (Oragami King and Sticker Star) are games I dropped near the end, they just didn't hold my attention well enough, I didn't like the shallow unrewarding battle mechanics in both these games whereas the og Paper Mario Games still excelled in that area back in the day.

Still, if I would be a developer of a new Paper Mario Game I wouldn't recreate the same battle engine as TTYD, I would also try to invent something new, while TTYD was nice replaying it so many times makes these battles tend to drag now as well, they could try to make them more quick paced for less rewards or something else entirely.

I am playing with my own game design right now and attempting a battle mechanic where you get 10-15 seconds of free reign during your turn where you can collect tokens scattered throughout the battling area that can enhance your atk-def-hp-element for the current turn, you still have to finish a attack while collecting these items by pressing a certain buttons combination that will only be visible after 5-10 seconds. You can collect many tokens if you plan it right but you might end up fumbling your attack. high risk high reward.
 
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There's a really dope rom hack of Paper Mario 64 that backports elements of TTYD into it like Partners having HP, being able to use items, and several of TTYD's combat badges.
 
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Played Paper Mario 64 the first time last year and it was indeed still excellent and fun to play today.
I was spin-dashing everywhere.
 
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Apologies if it’s been touched on, but are we able to give an educational guess on when this game will release next year? We only got “2024” and even Luigi’s Mansion 2 HD got a “Summer of 2024”

I hope it’s April, my Birthday month 🙂
 
Apologies if it’s been touched on, but are we able to give an educational guess on when this game will release next year? We only got “2024” and even Luigi’s Mansion 2 HD got a “Summer of 2024”

I hope it’s April, my Birthday month 🙂
paraphrased from someone else earlier in the thread: in the September 2019 Direct, the Xenoblade remaster was revealed at the end with a simple "2020" card. it ended up coming on May 29, 2020.

imo April or May isn't too unlikely, and I'd guess the former personally
 
paraphrased from someone else earlier in the thread: in the September 2019 Direct, the Xenoblade remaster was revealed at the end with a simple "2020" card. it ended up coming on May 29, 2020.

imo April or May isn't too unlikely, and I'd guess the former personally
May would be a blast because it’s my birthday month. April would be an equal or better blast because it’d be sooner ahhahaha
 
Apologies if it’s been touched on, but are we able to give an educational guess on when this game will release next year? We only got “2024” and even Luigi’s Mansion 2 HD got a “Summer of 2024”

I hope it’s April, my Birthday month 🙂
I would guess Q2 2024 (April - June), if you put a gun to my head and made me guess I'll pick May.
 
I usually stay away from paper mario threads, like the arlo tears one, for obvious reasons but I right now I’m bored and I want to share an opinion that keeps bugging me for years.
I don’t like paper mario 64, it’s frustrating and kind of boring and everytime I see universal praise for the game I feel like I’ve played a different game. It has some pretty cool chapter, especially chapter 3 and chapter 7 but it wasn’t as fun and as creative as I expected, it wasn’t even that funny (except the peach side story).
 
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Desperately want to see how the next new game will turn out. I love the classic RPG format but I also really enjoyed the macho battles of Origami king. I also enjoyed the free flowing attack nature of Super, it was really satisfying to bounce off an enemy, do a stylish move, then bounce off the next enemy into a lvl up.

If they can incorporate everything into one super indepth combo meal of a battle system it would be the dream.
 
May feels right, with Side Order in April. Luigi's Mansion 2 HD, Fire Emblem 4, and other remasters to fill in any remaining gaps.
 
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Apologies if it’s been touched on, but are we able to give an educational guess on when this game will release next year? We only got “2024” and even Luigi’s Mansion 2 HD got a “Summer of 2024”

I hope it’s April, my Birthday month 🙂

I don't think we get it in the first half of the year. At the same time, I don't think this is any sort of a holiday tentpole title.

Put me down for July 2024.
 
paraphrased from someone else earlier in the thread: in the September 2019 Direct, the Xenoblade remaster was revealed at the end with a simple "2020" card. it ended up coming on May 29, 2020.

imo April or May isn't too unlikely, and I'd guess the former personally
Pikmin 4 was also shown as 2023 in last year's Direct fwiw, though this really doesn't feel like a game that should need until July
 
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Desperately want to see how the next new game will turn out. I love the classic RPG format but I also really enjoyed the macho battles of Origami king. I also enjoyed the free flowing attack nature of Super, it was really satisfying to bounce off an enemy, do a stylish move, then bounce off the next enemy into a lvl up.

If they can incorporate everything into one super indepth combo meal of a battle system it would be the dream.
Seamless transition turn based battles, plus Paper Mache battles as an optional mini game/arena esque segment
 
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Wow, I did not really listen to the difference in the soundtrack until now, that is certainly a bold choice. I can forgive if they're aiming to match the ultra high quality live instrumentals of Origami King and can pull that off, but the fact that it's replacing such decidedly synth-based style of music demands there be a toggle like SMRPG. Like many tracks felt directly influenced by the Moog compositions of Jean-Jacques Perrey, I have some faith in what the top brass Nintendo music team can do but there's still something lost there no matter what.
 
if the next PM isn't an RPG I'd prefer if they just cut turn-based combat completely. The ring battles in Origami King really dragged the experience down for me.
This is right here.
The battles in Origami King were novel at first and then got really monotonous later on. I think I actually stopped playing halfway through because of the battles.
If the next Paper Mario was basically a 3D SPM, I would be down for it, as it would mean no more gimmicky combat that would slow down the pace.
 
I never realized I wanted one until I thought about it...

Please give us Goombella amiibo! Even if it's something like an acryllic stand on top of an NFC reader.
 
Apologies if it’s been touched on, but are we able to give an educational guess on when this game will release next year? We only got “2024” and even Luigi’s Mansion 2 HD got a “Summer of 2024”

I hope it’s April, my Birthday month 🙂
I am still leaning towards July for the original's 20th anniversary and also when TOK came out. It would be a few days off to release on Friday, though.
 
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I don't care about 30fps that much. Paper Mario is a series where it doesn't make so much difference. But of course it would be great if the game was 60 especially because it originally was.
 
I don't care about 30fps that much. Paper Mario is a series where it doesn't make so much difference. But of course it would be great if the game was 60 especially because it originally was.
Ehhhh, I'm not the kind of guy who obsesses over FPS in games, but here it will be very important for Superguard (unless they increase its time window).

I agree though this footage is probably from an early build and hard to ascertain much.
 
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if the next PM isn't an RPG I'd prefer if they just cut turn-based combat completely. The ring battles in Origami King really dragged the experience down for me.
I think they worked great for bosses where it's the opposite setup and you're working you're way into the inner rings to attack, but yeah the regular battles once you realize it's the same six or so combinations every time get repetitive really fast.
 
Wow, I did not really listen to the difference in the soundtrack until now, that is certainly a bold choice. I can forgive if they're aiming to match the ultra high quality live instrumentals of Origami King and can pull that off, but the fact that it's replacing such decidedly synth-based style of music demands there be a toggle like SMRPG. Like many tracks felt directly influenced by the Moog compositions of Jean-Jacques Perrey, I have some faith in what the top brass Nintendo music team can do but there's still something lost there no matter what.
i wonder how a orchestred Doopliss battle theme would sound
 
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It's crazy how the most people will think this is a remaster from first looking at it. Seems like if the structures and stuff are similar to the original. What we remember isn't accurate enough to notice that this is a completely redone game lol. I wonder if this effect has a name.
 
Jumped back in to Paper Mario 64 for the first time in over a decade tonight, just beat the Koopa Bros. I’ve always been a TTYD-preferer but am opening to reevaluating both since it’s been so long for either.

Some thoughts:

- It feels weird, having played so many JRPGs since, to go back to single digit damage numbers. But oddly enough it makes fights feel more tense and grounded. There’s a lot of little intricacies like enemy placement and moves that can hit one, multiple, first in line. Also enemy type (spiked, flying), that make it pretty tactical. Koopa Bros. had me down to 4 HP and I easily see how I could’ve played better.

- Even after over a decade since playing both, PM64’s combat is immediately noticeably less fun than TTYD’s and I think that’ll always be the biggest mark against it in comparison. Stylish moves, super guarding, audience, Partner HP, even more action command stuff in TTYD just makes it more tactile and fun.

- Speaking of action commands, still fucking brilliant and it’s insane to me that other turn based RPGs never copied the concept.

- Storywise, I also immediately see why I prefer TTYD. 64’s setup is cute, simple and whimsical, but I just prefer TTYD’s less “Mario-esque” approach and weirdness. Partners are noticeably less fleshed out than I remember, which surprised me. Kooper and Bombette almost immediately joined the party after just a bit of dialogue and haven’t chimed in much since then. Maybe I’m misremembering, but TTYD’s are way more interesting characters in my head, more eccentric and memorable personalities too.

I don’t wanna nitpick too much, it’s still a fantastic game and I’m happy I’m diving back in, but I went in open to evaluating it more favorably compared to TTYD after so long and removed from childhood TTYD obsession but I don’t think I’ll end up doing so.
 
Jumped back in to Paper Mario 64 for the first time in over a decade tonight, just beat the Koopa Bros. I’ve always been a TTYD-preferer but am opening to reevaluating both since it’s been so long for either.

Some thoughts:

- It feels weird, having played so many JRPGs since, to go back to single digit damage numbers. But oddly enough it makes fights feel more tense and grounded. There’s a lot of little intricacies like enemy placement and moves that can hit one, multiple, first in line. Also enemy type (spiked, flying), that make it pretty tactical. Koopa Bros. had me down to 4 HP and I easily see how I could’ve played better.

- Even after over a decade since playing both, PM64’s combat is immediately noticeably less fun than TTYD’s and I think that’ll always be the biggest mark against it in comparison. Stylish moves, super guarding, audience, Partner HP, even more action command stuff in TTYD just makes it more tactile and fun.

- Speaking of action commands, still fucking brilliant and it’s insane to me that other turn based RPGs never copied the concept.

- Storywise, I also immediately see why I prefer TTYD. 64’s setup is cute, simple and whimsical, but I just prefer TTYD’s less “Mario-esque” approach and weirdness. Partners are noticeably less fleshed out than I remember, which surprised me. Kooper and Bombette almost immediately joined the party after just a bit of dialogue and haven’t chimed in much since then. Maybe I’m misremembering, but TTYD’s are way more interesting characters in my head, more eccentric and memorable personalities too.

I don’t wanna nitpick too much, it’s still a fantastic game and I’m happy I’m diving back in, but I went in open to evaluating it more favorably compared to TTYD after so long and removed from childhood TTYD obsession but I don’t think I’ll end up doing so.
I recently beat sea of stars and also jumped into mario and luigi and paper mario 64 after the ttyd reveal, and yeah I'm baffled action commands are absent from pretty much every other turn based rpg. They just make the game more fun and engaging imo.
 
Jumped back in to Paper Mario 64 for the first time in over a decade tonight, just beat the Koopa Bros. I’ve always been a TTYD-preferer but am opening to reevaluating both since it’s been so long for either.

Some thoughts:

- It feels weird, having played so many JRPGs since, to go back to single digit damage numbers. But oddly enough it makes fights feel more tense and grounded. There’s a lot of little intricacies like enemy placement and moves that can hit one, multiple, first in line. Also enemy type (spiked, flying), that make it pretty tactical. Koopa Bros. had me down to 4 HP and I easily see how I could’ve played better.

- Even after over a decade since playing both, PM64’s combat is immediately noticeably less fun than TTYD’s and I think that’ll always be the biggest mark against it in comparison. Stylish moves, super guarding, audience, Partner HP, even more action command stuff in TTYD just makes it more tactile and fun.

- Speaking of action commands, still fucking brilliant and it’s insane to me that other turn based RPGs never copied the concept.

- Storywise, I also immediately see why I prefer TTYD. 64’s setup is cute, simple and whimsical, but I just prefer TTYD’s less “Mario-esque” approach and weirdness. Partners are noticeably less fleshed out than I remember, which surprised me. Kooper and Bombette almost immediately joined the party after just a bit of dialogue and haven’t chimed in much since then. Maybe I’m misremembering, but TTYD’s are way more interesting characters in my head, more eccentric and memorable personalities too.

I don’t wanna nitpick too much, it’s still a fantastic game and I’m happy I’m diving back in, but I went in open to evaluating it more favorably compared to TTYD after so long and removed from childhood TTYD obsession but I don’t think I’ll end up doing so.
Fair enough, I can't disagree with those points. But even though the story is a more traditional Mario one, it expands on and nails that standard Mario story so well and it's so damn charming that I really don't mind in this case. Plus it gave us Paper Bowser!

Would be interested to get your thoughts as you progress further. Even though I admittedly have a huge amount of nostalgia for it, I do think it holds up incredibly well for its age.
 
Even as early as 64, the twists on your usual Mario story are pretty good.
Having Bowser winning against Mario super early and killing him on the process (yes, you heard that right) is a bold way to start a typical Mario story. A friendly Goomba that's a Mario fanboy, other friendly Mario species that are normally enemies (when you think about it a lot of partner species/abilities in 64 are more or less copied to TTYD into different characters), a Toad kung-fu master, a punk-rock Lakitu, it's all pretty unique. It's the first Mario RPG that tries to rely more, much more on Mario stuff, but actually putting in the effort to make a more grounded take on the Mushroom Kingdom. Fully interconnected, populated with different species with different allegiances, cultures, ways of life. That's worldbuilding, it may still be to this day the best Mario RPG in that regard, for a take that's almost exclusively Mario and Mario all throughout.
 
if the next PM isn't an RPG I'd prefer if they just cut turn-based combat completely. The ring battles in Origami King really dragged the experience down for me.

Yeah, just make it a 3D SPM then. Origami king was the best of the modern PM games, but I still started avoiding battles after the novelty wore off.
 
Even as early as 64, the twists on your usual Mario story are pretty good.
Having Bowser winning against Mario super early and killing him on the process (yes, you heard that right) is a bold way to start a typical Mario story. A friendly Goomba that's a Mario fanboy, other friendly Mario species that are normally enemies (when you think about it a lot of partner species/abilities in 64 are more or less copied to TTYD into different characters), a Toad kung-fu master, a punk-rock Lakitu, it's all pretty unique. It's the first Mario RPG that tries to rely more, much more on Mario stuff, but actually putting in the effort to make a more grounded take on the Mushroom Kingdom. Fully interconnected, populated with different species with different allegiances, cultures, ways of life. That's worldbuilding, it may still be to this day the best Mario RPG in that regard, for a take that's almost exclusively Mario and Mario all throughout.
You articulated that well, agreed!

It's like they had the thought "Hey, what if that goomba from Super Mario Bros has a wife and kid at home? And what if koopas have hobbies in their down time? And where do they all live?" etc, etc.
 
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if the next PM isn't an RPG I'd prefer if they just cut turn-based combat completely. The ring battles in Origami King really dragged the experience down for me.

IMO the "good" version of the Sticker Star/Color Splash/Origami King design philosophy would be to just make a literal point-and-click adventure game. I don't even need to control Mario directly, if I'm going to be looking around areas for Things I want to be able to get from one place to another as fast as possible.
 
I recently beat sea of stars and also jumped into mario and luigi and paper mario 64 after the ttyd reveal, and yeah I'm baffled action commands are absent from pretty much every other turn based rpg. They just make the game more fun and engaging imo.
YIIK is like Prime Example #1 of how action command combat can be extremely bad. Players also don't always want to do some micro-game level action just to attack.
 
Jumped back in to Paper Mario 64 for the first time in over a decade tonight, just beat the Koopa Bros. I’ve always been a TTYD-preferer but am opening to reevaluating both since it’s been so long for either.

Some thoughts:

- It feels weird, having played so many JRPGs since, to go back to single digit damage numbers. But oddly enough it makes fights feel more tense and grounded. There’s a lot of little intricacies like enemy placement and moves that can hit one, multiple, first in line. Also enemy type (spiked, flying), that make it pretty tactical. Koopa Bros. had me down to 4 HP and I easily see how I could’ve played better.

- Even after over a decade since playing both, PM64’s combat is immediately noticeably less fun than TTYD’s and I think that’ll always be the biggest mark against it in comparison. Stylish moves, super guarding, audience, Partner HP, even more action command stuff in TTYD just makes it more tactile and fun.

- Speaking of action commands, still fucking brilliant and it’s insane to me that other turn based RPGs never copied the concept.

- Storywise, I also immediately see why I prefer TTYD. 64’s setup is cute, simple and whimsical, but I just prefer TTYD’s less “Mario-esque” approach and weirdness. Partners are noticeably less fleshed out than I remember, which surprised me. Kooper and Bombette almost immediately joined the party after just a bit of dialogue and haven’t chimed in much since then. Maybe I’m misremembering, but TTYD’s are way more interesting characters in my head, more eccentric and memorable personalities too.

I don’t wanna nitpick too much, it’s still a fantastic game and I’m happy I’m diving back in, but I went in open to evaluating it more favorably compared to TTYD after so long and removed from childhood TTYD obsession but I don’t think I’ll end up doing so.
After finishing Paper Mario 64 again my most scorching takeaway -- which I would probably need to replay TTYD to substantiate more because it's purely going off of memory from my last playthrough quite a few years ago -- was that I think Paper Mario 64's combat is arguably better designed than TTYD's despite having less hooks to it.

The biggest differentiator between both games is how Paper Mario 64's badge economy and offering is drastically different. The first game puts a cap on badges at 30 BP (TTYD caps it at 99), meaning it is extremely difficult to break the game and turns fairly crucial badges like Power Plus, Defense Plus, and Flower Saver into a massive investment that will have to come at the cost of some valuable skills that makes the most of it all. There's also far less in terms of unique skills and context sensitive badges. Most of all, the game has no badges that serve to buff Partners, which will be important in a bit.

All of that definitely sounds less "fun", you get to do less goofy builds, but it also means you have to consider so much when picking and choosing what to prioritize. There was a point after I bought the All or Nothing badge when I stopped for about 5 minutes to consider whether investing BP into it was more ideal than culling a skill to place the buff into another Power Plus instead. The resource loop of needing FP both for defense and offense, needing BP to offset FP cost but also needing BP to buff up damage/defense, is genuinely compelling. It makes combat encounters far more meaningful because there's a limit to how much you can bulk up, making enemies far more threatening and battles far more strategic. What surprised me in particular was how I actually got a Game Over in a random encounter, and some late game bosses are pretty notable difficulty spikes, including optional ones like Kent C. Koopa.

The partners meanwhile, despite being less individualized from the lack of partner badges and their own health, are probably the most understated element in terms of design. There's no hook to circumvent shortcomings of 64's gang through supplemental systems. Goombario is the strongest single target attacker but requires setup (and his Multibonk cap is bugged), Kooper has a solid debuff and an AOE that gets heavy usage during the late game, but he has no air coverage which makes him very suboptimal during mid game. Bombette is the strongest multi-target attacker in the early game but becomes progressively outclassed by Ultra Ranks from Chapter 5 onward and mainly sees use as a counterpick option. Parakarry has omnipresent coverage and power but is a monumental FP sink. Bow has the strongest resource-free single target damage and a full protective move, but has zero defensive penetration. Watt has really strong buffs/debuffs and defensive piercing but has no multitarget attacks. Sushie is like Parakarry but with more difficult execution, elemental advantages, and a buff move. Lakilester is comparatively weak as a late game party member but is an omnipresent low-risk/low-resource attacker with a nice defensive move. Despite having the most party members of any of the games, the game still encourages cycling through most of them as often as it can manage which adds another layer of strategy to everything. There's invariably a few weaker ones like Bow and Lakilester, but as previously said you're micromanaging resources a lot more in this game so using low-resource attacks when you can is often important.

By contrast, the thing I find about TTYD's motley crew is that some of them feel monumentally overcentralized because of badge buffing and are almost too individually strong in their own right; a few of them excel at too many things and have too many upsides for their archetype. Yoshi inherits Bow's low base defense penetration, but has Gulp as a two target defensive piercing attack. Upgrading Yoshi and loading up on badges turns him into a hydrogen bomb of a damage dealer, especially if you soften up enemies' defense or boost his power via moves like Power Lift. Vivian not only has Lakilester's omnipresent targeting but inflicts status effects and has an omnipresent multi-target defense piercing move, which is just insane. Finally Goombella inherits Goombario's single target dominance (without the bugged cap) and for good measure is also able to relinquish her turn to Mario, who is just always sitting on a smorgasbord of fuckery. All three of these practically demolish the need to think more strategically about which other partners to use.

I think TTYD has a lot of remarkable systems under the hood that you can stretch to its limits, and it's fun to do so, but I always felt this was less on account of clever application as opposed to raw brute forcing. In spite of all the little cool additions like super guards and the audience related mechanics (which as an aside further made combat pretty lopsided because building Star Power resources in PM64 was so much more difficult), it predominantly suffices as a fun exercise in how much time you can spend in order to watch numbers go haywire. There's a novelty in all of that, but after my first Danger Mario run I ultimately came away with this "emperor has no clothes" feeling about the game's combat as a whole, and this sense that vigilance decrement creeps up a bit too easily.
 
they look 60fps indeed, maybe the footage show on the game reveal trailer was a older development build
Those videos were uploaded at 30fps. They're not 60.

- Even after over a decade since playing both, PM64’s combat is immediately noticeably less fun than TTYD’s and I think that’ll always be the biggest mark against it in comparison. Stylish moves, super guarding, audience, Partner HP, even more action command stuff in TTYD just makes it more tactile and fun.
This is a fair take (that's also just the majority, I'll concede that), though I personally feel all those elements combine to take away somewhat from this:
It feels weird, having played so many JRPGs since, to go back to single digit damage numbers. But oddly enough it makes fights feel more tense and grounded.
It's a balance that I'd love to see struck in the middle somewhere. TTYD's combat is a game within a game that's quite fun, but once you're acclimated to all the additions I find it trivializes the heart of the combat.

Not that Paper Mario was ever that hard of a game, but I dunno, I find it matters a little. Going for the optional bosses in PM64 (Anti Guy, Kent C. Koopa) as soon as they open up is a pretty tough challenge.

- Storywise, I also immediately see why I prefer TTYD. 64’s setup is cute, simple and whimsical, but I just prefer TTYD’s less “Mario-esque” approach and weirdness. Partners are noticeably less fleshed out than I remember, which surprised me. Kooper and Bombette almost immediately joined the party after just a bit of dialogue and haven’t chimed in much since then. Maybe I’m misremembering, but TTYD’s are way more interesting characters in my head, more eccentric and memorable personalities too.
It's hard for me to break down exactly why I feel how I do, but I agree with this on the surface - but as the games continue on, there's just something about PM64 that grips me a little more. Maybe it's because I'm very much a 'see all the dialogue' guy, and I love the way the discourse in Toad Town changes each chapter? Again, I can't put my finger on exactly what it is, but there's just something about 64 that's so endearing to me that it outweighs the eccentricity TTYD brings to the table.

As for the partners, yeah - TTYD is the only game in the series to have partner dialogue throughout the story, with unique dialogue for each partner depending on who you have out. 64's partners talk a bit in the chapters you get them, and largely go mute once they've been properly recruited, outside of the occasional NPC dialogue that requires you to have the correct partner out (like Kooper with Kolorado). It's a rather large point in TTYD's favor.

I don’t wanna nitpick too much, it’s still a fantastic game and I’m happy I’m diving back in, but I went in open to evaluating it more favorably compared to TTYD after so long and removed from childhood TTYD obsession but I don’t think I’ll end up doing so.
As much as I've pushed 64 as a better game than its given credit for, TTYD is very much the fan favorite. I doubt that'll change with the remake (though I am curious to see if you enjoy that as much as you remember when it comes out).
 
As much as I've pushed 64 as a better game than its given credit for, TTYD is very much the fan favorite. I doubt that'll change with the remake (though I am curious to see if you enjoy that as much as you remember when it comes out).
The game's release is going to be something to watch. Given how much online people have puffed up TTYD over the years, that could both help and potentially hurt the game when people are able to get their hands on it.
 
It's kinda funny to think of Paper Mario 64 as a subversive Mario game narratively, but yeah it was.
 
After finishing Paper Mario 64 again my most scorching takeaway -- which I would probably need to replay TTYD to substantiate more because it's purely going off of memory from my last playthrough quite a few years ago -- was that I think Paper Mario 64's combat is arguably better designed than TTYD's despite having less hooks to it.

The biggest differentiator between both games is how Paper Mario 64's badge economy and offering is drastically different. The first game puts a cap on badges at 30 BP (TTYD caps it at 99), meaning it is extremely difficult to break the game and turns fairly crucial badges like Power Plus, Defense Plus, and Flower Saver into a massive investment that will have to come at the cost of some valuable skills that makes the most of it all. There's also far less in terms of unique skills and context sensitive badges. Most of all, the game has no badges that serve to buff Partners, which will be important in a bit.

All of that definitely sounds less "fun", you get to do less goofy builds, but it also means you have to consider so much when picking and choosing what to prioritize. There was a point after I bought the All or Nothing badge when I stopped for about 5 minutes to consider whether investing BP into it was more ideal than culling a skill to place the buff into another Power Plus instead. The resource loop of needing FP both for defense and offense, needing BP to offset FP cost but also needing BP to buff up damage/defense, is genuinely compelling. It makes combat encounters far more meaningful because there's a limit to how much you can bulk up, making enemies far more threatening and battles far more strategic. What surprised me in particular was how I actually got a Game Over in a random encounter, and some late game bosses are pretty notable difficulty spikes, including optional ones like Kent C. Koopa.

The partners meanwhile, despite being less individualized from the lack of partner badges and their own health, are probably the most understated element in terms of design. There's no hook to circumvent shortcomings of 64's gang through supplemental systems. Goombario is the strongest single target attacker but requires setup (and his Multibonk cap is bugged), Kooper has a solid debuff and an AOE that gets heavy usage during the late game, but he has no air coverage which makes him very suboptimal during mid game. Bombette is the strongest multi-target attacker in the early game but becomes progressively outclassed by Ultra Ranks from Chapter 5 onward and mainly sees use as a counterpick option. Parakarry has omnipresent coverage and power but is a monumental FP sink. Bow has the strongest resource-free single target damage and a full protective move, but has zero defensive penetration. Watt has really strong buffs/debuffs and defensive piercing but has no multitarget attacks. Sushie is like Parakarry but with more difficult execution, elemental advantages, and a buff move. Lakilester is comparatively weak as a late game party member but is an omnipresent low-risk/low-resource attacker with a nice defensive move. Despite having the most party members of any of the games, the game still encourages cycling through most of them as often as it can manage which adds another layer of strategy to everything. There's invariably a few weaker ones like Bow and Lakilester, but as previously said you're micromanaging resources a lot more in this game so using low-resource attacks when you can is often important.

By contrast, the thing I find about TTYD's motley crew is that some of them feel monumentally overcentralized because of badge buffing and are almost too individually strong in their own right; a few of them excel at too many things and have too many upsides for their archetype. Yoshi inherits Bow's low base defense penetration, but has Gulp as a two target defensive piercing attack. Upgrading Yoshi and loading up on badges turns him into a hydrogen bomb of a damage dealer, especially if you soften up enemies' defense or boost his power via moves like Power Lift. Vivian not only has Lakilester's omnipresent targeting but inflicts status effects and has an omnipresent multi-target defense piercing move, which is just insane. Finally Goombella inherits Goombario's single target dominance (without the bugged cap) and for good measure is also able to relinquish her turn to Mario, who is just always sitting on a smorgasbord of fuckery. All three of these practically demolish the need to think more strategically about which other partners to use.

I think TTYD has a lot of remarkable systems under the hood that you can stretch to its limits, and it's fun to do so, but I always felt this was less on account of clever application as opposed to raw brute forcing. In spite of all the little cool additions like super guards and the audience related mechanics (which as an aside further made combat pretty lopsided because building Star Power resources in PM64 was so much more difficult), it predominantly suffices as a fun exercise in how much time you can spend in order to watch numbers go haywire. There's a novelty in all of that, but after my first Danger Mario run I ultimately came away with this "emperor has no clothes" feeling about the game's combat as a whole, and this sense that vigilance decrement creeps up a bit too easily.
I agree with just about all of this.

TTYD's badge and partner systems can feel like having a hand-picked legacy Magic the Gathering deck in a game where the devs had to balance around you only figuring out how to build one of a few modern-tier decks they had in mind, for lack of a more common analogy. The sheer freedom you have in bending the rules to your benefit is insane - but the game is designed to also be enjoyed by seven-year-olds that aren't going to put together that always having Mario in danger can be a good thing, or even something as simple as the fact that BP outclasses HP as a level up option just about all of the time, and as a result the freedom largely results in seeing just how trivial you can make the game. It works for a lot of people, but at a certain point seeing how big the numbers get just isn't interesting to me anymore.

Of course, the solution to this is to just not make such a broken build, and I generally don't, but I also have a slightly harder time enjoying it when I know I'm handicapping myself. But even still, the changes to partner HP, SP regen, and superguarding are huge things that are easily abused.

Still, it's important to recognize that this is taste. A lot of people like TTYD's combat changes for the exact same reasons they aren't really for me. And even I can't deny consistently nailing superguards is fun, even if it takes away from the strategy.

The game's release is going to be something to watch. Given how much online people have puffed up TTYD over the years, that could both help and potentially hurt the game when people are able to get their hands on it.
Yeah, I can't think of a Nintendo game that went this long without rereleasing that had this strong of a reputation since... perhaps Sunshine, if we count both positive and negative reputations? The discourse around that game was pretty fun when 3D All-Stars came out; there was a fair bit of people who just had their existing opinions strengthened, but also people who it grew on, people who soured on it, new players who adored it, and new players who wondered wtf Nintendo was smoking.

TTYD is an interesting one in that it's more niche than mainline Mario, but has such a strong following at this point that a fair amount of people who normally wouldn't have played it are inevitably going to be sucked in; some of them will probably like it a lot, but some probably just won't really be the audience for this kind of game. On the flip side, the opinion among fans that PM64 has aged better than TTYD is actually a sentiment I've seen grow a fair bit in recent years; I anticipate the remake adds a fair bit of fuel to this debate on both sides.

There will also totally be people who've only played TOK who hear this is the best one just to play it and wind up confused, which I think will be kinda funny. There's a sentiment among some TTYD fans that seem to think people who want more games like TOK just haven't played TTYD, and I'm curious to see where the debate does when more people are able to say they've played both and prefer TOK.
 
My thing with 64 is that it was the first JRPG I completed. After a while it turned out it was very useful to use Power Bounce and Boost for some boss fights where trouble was present. A good strategy was to boost Mario or/and Goombario until their health was super low and then making them do multiple jumps in one turn was the best strategy at winning. Just use that in the final battle against Bowser and your chances of succeeding are very high if you're skilled enough at timing them.
 
The game's release is going to be something to watch. Given how much online people have puffed up TTYD over the years, that could both help and potentially hurt the game when people are able to get their hands on it.
i don't think people have puffed up TTYD specifically versus puffing up/wanting good paper mario to return. TTYD gets more praise because it's the expanded, more core sequel but people praise 64 a ton too
 
i don't think people have puffed up TTYD specifically versus puffing up/wanting good paper mario to return. TTYD gets more praise because it's the expanded, more core sequel but people praise 64 a ton too
Given how many YouTubers have essentially positioned TTYD as one of the Greatest Games Ever Made and unassailably the Greatest Paper Mario Game There Ever Was and Will Be, it's absolutely puffed up.

It's a classic, sure, but there will absolutely be people taken in by the game's reputation in online discourse and come away from the remake wondering what the big deal is. Also the idea that TTYD represents "good Paper Mario" compared to what came after is not a universally held opinion.
 
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