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Discussion Pokémon BDSP proves what I have suspected for years: top down, linear Pokémon is much better than "open world" Pokémon

Replaying the older games proved this to me a while ago. BDSP just needs Platinum content and difficulty options.
 
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Tbf you are giving SS a hard time there. Gen 4’s world is prob the most well made world in pokemon/ds games ever, regardless of being top down or third person open world. SS would immediately looks lackluster when compared to it
 
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I'm enjoying BD a lot but it's way too soon to pass judgment on Arceus. SwSh isn't particularly open world either, not counting the DLC, but it is a more expansive, 3d Pokemon game than BD, a faithful remake of an older gen. I agree BD is a more coherent, better paced Pokemon game than SwSh, but I think Gamefreak can deliver a great, modern, expansive Pokemon game, they just haven't done it yet.
 
I’ve played every Pokémon game on day one since green/red in Japan in 1996, and I really dislike BDSP and it’s chibi style. This is the first time I think I’ve lost interest playing a Pokémon game before finishing it in over 25 years. I got as far as a trainer with 4-5 bidoof and just shook my head before calling it quits.

I’m looking forward to Arceus, but I think I’m done with old school Pokemon. It’s just so bland, formulaic, and unexciting. I’m super happy for OP and others who feel similar, but I feel my own personal interest in the series has long faded after endlessly stagnated gameplay evolution.

I haven’t outgrown Pokémon (I spent $1,000 AUD on Celebrations cards), and still love what people like Joe contribute to the community to keep it fresh for new fans, but I’m certainly done with these types of Pokémon games :(
 
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Sword and Shield aren't open world, nor are they really trying to be. It's mostly just an awkward first attempt at having large levels with a user-controlled camera. The wild area isn't very good for the same reasons as the game in general.

Heruderu said:
I’ve always wondered about that… GF had a difficult time being on schedule for SwSh to the point that everything there seems rushed. Why didn’t they delay it if they have the power to do so? Why they stick to 3 years development time even though their last generations really needed more time in the oven?

I always thought they were pressured by Nintendo to follow the schedule, considering Nintendo has a small share on GF and Creatures Inc. as well as the trademarks for all Pokémon names and publishing rights. This has always made me think Nintendo is the stronger arm in the negotiating table and the one dictating when the games need to be done.
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Game Freak sets the schedule, but Pokémon is such a massive multifaceted machine that once things reach a certain point, delays become nigh-impossible. The problem is that there was like a full decade where Game Freak consistently overestimated their ability to deliver polished games in 3 years. If Gen 9 is 2023 like things are currently looking, then they're finally going back to 4 year dev cycles like the DS games had.
 
Can't beat that good ol topdown goodness, it's why they still do zelda ones or remakes of the old ones. There is no replacement.
 
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To be fair I don't think open world Pokemon has been anywhere near as good as it could be. The limitations aren't due to the series as much as the developers.
 
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Joseki said:
The world of Pokémon lends itself perfectly to a chibi, diaorama like style as opposed to the more realistic artstyle of SwSh (and the upcoming Arceus) that often had this really ugly visual look given by the more realistic looking, low quality models and texturing conflicting with the much more detailed and very popping colors of the monster.
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It’s a solvable issue though. Many other games don’t suffer from this kind of slapdash aesthetic of SwSh and Arceus. You can also see many incongruities in later areas of Dark Souls and throughout Dark Souls 2, which were likely a factor of a troubled development cycle.

I would not mind scaling down the number of Mons if it meant the game was more polished in general. As the number grows, it will just become untenable at a certain point. Better to realize that sooner than later before the quality of the game suffers in other areas too. That said, it’s a different issue in Arceus. I’m not sure what’s going on there…
 
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Sun & Moon still have the best approach, imo. I like how Alola feels like an actual living environment even without having to be 'open world'. SwSh fumbled the bag hard in almost every aspect but the routes were especially dire and it seems like that's due to the Wild Area from what I can tell, which wasn't even slightly a worthwhile trade-off. Legends Arceus does look promising and I mostly enjoyed the SwSh DLC but I still find the linear-route still more engaging as long as it's done right.

I still think there's potential in an open-environment Pokemon game but, as of now, it seems way out of Game Freak's ballpark when they've been struggling with the move to modern hardware for years now. It feels like they're juggling so much between trying to advance the series and struggling to make games that aren't a complete mess at the same time. I think they really just need to go back to what made Gen 7 work (controversial opinion) and improve on what didn't (less controversial).
 
As others have said, if the games were given the development time they needed we wouldn't be having this conversation. GS had delay after delay, but when it came out it fulfilled its potential. 3D games take more time to develop and they aren't getting it.
 
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I think the whole debate regarding 'linear vs open world' that the Poke community is engaging in right now is kind of the wrong debate. I don't think Pokemon needs to go full BOTW, nor do I think it would be good for the series to stick rigidly to its roots. It needs to find a balance that makes full use of the higher power of the Switch. I've said many times that GameFreak could do a lot worse than look at Dragon Quest XI for inspiration. That's a game where it's not strictly an open world, but a series of routes interlinking towns and villages, which you progress across in a linear manner depending on story circumstances. Yet it remains fully 3D with areas to explore with fully rendered and animated monsters roaming the expanse you can choose to fight or ignore at your leisure.

Honestly if GameFreak created a Pokemon on that template, pushing the Switch to it's limits in terms of power and capabilities, it'd be nigh close to a perfect Pokemon game for me personally.
 
Heruderu said:
Do people really remember old routes based on diverging paths? I remember them by their visual elements (ashes falling, snow, sandstorm, beach, forests, cycling roads, caves), not by their layout.
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For the first two generations at least? Definitely. They didn't have a whole lot of assets to work with so they did quite a bit to differentiate a route's feel by layout and the unique way you'd traverse it.
 
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Cevan said:
Sun & Moon still have the best approach, imo. I like how Alola feels like an actual living environment even without having to be 'open world'. SwSh fumbled the bag hard in almost every aspect but the routes were especially dire and it seems like that's due to the Wild Area from what I can tell, which wasn't even slightly a worthwhile trade-off. Legends Arceus does look promising and I mostly enjoyed the SwSh DLC but I still find the linear-route still more engaging as long as it's done right.

I still think there's potential in an open-environment Pokemon game but, as of now, it seems way out of Game Freak's ballpark when they've been struggling with the move to modern hardware for years now. It feels like they're juggling so much between trying to advance the series and struggling to make games that aren't a complete mess at the same time. I think they really just need to go back to what made Gen 7 work (controversial opinion) and improve on what didn't (less controversial).
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Sun and Moon is coherent and consistent throughout, both aesthetically and in terms of level design and polish.
Legends seems like it’s almost there too, it just falls short a bit on the aesthetic cohesion, but I’m not worried at all for the future.
 
Aleh said:
Sun and Moon is coherent and consistent throughout, both aesthetically and in terms of level design and polish.
Legends seems like it’s almost there too, it just falls short a bit on the aesthetic cohesion, but I’m not worried at all for the future.
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I feel the same way, Legends gives me exact the same vibe that Sun & Moon does which is super exciting, I assume they're maybe being done by the same team/creative leads or something since SwSh was so different, I'm not sure.

I'm definitely looking forward to it though, I just think my biggest concern at the minute is how they handle the world design and how much stuff there is to do/to find in the environment.
 
I can't say I was a huge fan of Sun/Moon. That wasn't entirely due to the linearity, but it didn't help

(The "go three steps then have that idiot Hau prattle on about malasdas again" was my main issue)
 
Cevan said:
Sun & Moon still have the best approach, imo. I like how Alola feels like an actual living environment even without having to be 'open world'. SwSh fumbled the bag hard in almost every aspect but the routes were especially dire and it seems like that's due to the Wild Area from what I can tell, which wasn't even slightly a worthwhile trade-off. Legends Arceus does look promising and I mostly enjoyed the SwSh DLC but I still find the linear-route still more engaging as long as it's done right.
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I very much liked Alola and it's quite possibly the gen I want more to see remade in the future, especially if they are going for the "faithful remake" since the base games for gen 7 were actually the better version except for the lack of Ultra Necrozma fight.
 
Joseki said:
I very much liked Alola and it's quite possibly the gen I want more to see remade in the future, especially if they are going for the "faithful remake" since the base games for gen 7 were actually the better version except for the lack of Ultra Necrozma fight.
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Yeah Gen 7 was really good, but I agree with this. The original games had a much better story and character drama, the only thing that they were lacking was the Ultra fight (and Poipole!). I think Sun/Moon might have the best story in the series, as much as I love Gen 5; they're both way up there, and also way up on my list of faves in the series. I really hope that GameFreak doesn't abandon the idea of having a more involved story again.
 
I will say this game oddly feels "bigger" than Sword/Shield (Which I liked). I'm not a big pokemon guy but I enjoy them from time to time.
This is my first time playing Diamond so many that plays a part in it. Totally hope they keep Open World and Classic pokemon styles going forward.

There's enough room for both easily.
 
Jawmuncher said:
I will say this game oddly feels "bigger" than Sword/Shield (Which I liked). I'm not a big pokemon guy but I enjoy them from time to time.
This is my first time playing Diamond so many that plays a part in it. Totally hope they keep Open World and Classic pokemon styles going forward.

There's enough room for both easily.
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I wouldn't say it's odd. The scale and segmentation makes the world feel bigger than it is. That's why so few open world games are open world. and the ones that are a proper world are usually barren as fuck. Sticking with segmented wide areas is the best compromise between the two
 
lol
OP speaks as though Pokémon has ever ventured out of it's comfortable 25 year old shell of game design
 
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