Discussion Game Developers in awe of Nintendo’s Tears of the Kingdom "miracle"

[MisterSpo]

The stuff they've built here, which I assume will be shared with the rest of EPD, makes me really excited for their next system. We’re finally gonna get that next gen Wave Race, fami.

Yeah, I was thinking it'll be really interesting to see what feeds into EPD's other games, especially now that Nintendo are seemingly sharing the single ModuleSystem engine. It's not only good for efficiency, but it'll also hopefully be good for creativity and design. That massive time and resource investment in Tears can benefit other games at EPD.

 

[meatbag]

That massive time and resource investment in Tears can benefit other games at EPD

Man, I’d love to see how their dev tools and experiences for TotK would be utilized for their other games.

 

[Lozjam]

Definitely impressive. Whether that level of dedication to physics is worth it or almost self-indulgent is up to you though. Interesting debate to have.

To say that Tears of the Kingdom is self indulgent because of its physics is missing the forest for the trees.

In this case, the physics system is the game itself. Everything that you do in the game is tied to game physics, and it all has a purpose. You can string together all of those rules and abilities and create something special.

What I would consider indulgent physics is stuff like Metal Gear Solid 2, or the bottle animations in Half Life.

The ice melting in MGS 2 is ridiculously ahead of its time, and a fun Easter egg. But it does nothing to actually make the game play better, or really change that much. I would consider that self indulgent. Now tears of the kingdom takes the concept of ice melting, and actually uses it. You can use ice to make frozen platforms, or to attach to your shield and have a really slippery sled, or to keep you cool in the heat, or instantly kill fire lizalfos, ect. But you are on a time limit, because ice melts.

Or the bottle physics in half life alyx. Like, it is ridiculously cool to look at and handle. Almost no game actually does something like that. But at the end of the day, it really doesn't affect gameplay, it's just a fun little toy to mess around with. In tears of the kingdom, there are several water based puzzles where you have change water levels.

 

[Hocot8]

This was exactly the game I was thinking about when writing my comment.

I don't want to say these game shouldn't exist, that's why I didn't name it. But the praise these games still get is doing the medium a disservice, imo (a bit of hyperbol, I know). Because this way they can't really evolve on a high budget level.

Indies are doing awesome stuff for years now (Teardown from SONYs showcase comes to mind as well) but the Zelda team delivers the fun of it to the mainstream and that's really good.

It's very simply why people give a "pass" to Spiderman. People like the feeling of playing as Spiderman. They immerse themselves into the character but if you ain't a fan of the character it probably means nothing then.

 

[Horror Kid]

It's very simply why people give a "pass" to Spiderman. People like the feeling of playing as Spiderman. They immerse themselves into the character but if you ain't a fan of the character it probably means nothing then.

That's true for sure. I like spiderman and have yet to play these last Insomniac games. I think I will like the swinging around but I am just so very over these chase or combat sequences where a lot is going on while I am only pressing a few buttons every 10 seconds (feel like interactive movies). That's why these showcases don't interest me too much anymore.

If I am honest I never really liked it too much (since Dragon's Lair probably...) but was entertained by the PS3 God of War games and such because the core gameplay offered more.
The heavy scripted scenes just don't impress me anymore. Other stuff in Spiderman might.

 

[Deleted member 645]

I personally would love another game using this engine and world as a base. I can just roam around and do odd shit for hours on end.

 

[Aurc]

Yep - actively playing TotK, I got bored in the latest Spider-Man 2 trailer everyone is gushing about and didn’t even finish it. Lots of visual spectacle that amounts to holding forward and pressing two buttons together when told. Just doesn’t do it for me anymore.

This was exactly the game I was thinking about when writing my comment.

I don't want to say these game shouldn't exist, that's why I didn't name it. But the praise these games still get is doing the medium a disservice, imo (a bit of hyperbol, I know). Because this way they can't really evolve on a high budget level.

Indies are doing awesome stuff for years now (Teardown from SONYs showcase comes to mind as well) but the Zelda team delivers the fun of it to the mainstream and that's really good.

I loved Spider-Man, and didn't enjoy what I played of Breath of the Wild (just a personal taste thing), so I'm in the exact opposite camp as you two. Both games are clearly awesome, high quality experiences, but prioritize totally different things. I don't see the use in drawing these comparisons, especially if they're somewhat disingenuous ones where the game being disparaged is believed to be a "movie game" filled with scripted set pieces, QTEs, and linear funnelling. That's maybe accurate (to some extent) about Uncharted or The Order: 1886, but not Spider-Man, imo.

Speaking on the first Spider-Man's marketing, the E3 2017 demonstration was also filled with heavily scripted spectacle, but anyone who's played the full game will tell you these missions aren't indicative of the gameplay loop. They're actually quite rare, and are picked to showcase the game more because they're exciting from a presentation standpoint.

If I was to outline a few of the things I think Spider-Man does super well, I'd mention the exhilarating traversal, fluid combat, and well-characterized cast in the context of the narrative (Peter, Miles, Otto). Zelda isn't about high velocity zipping and zooming through its world, nor pinballing from goon to goon with superpowers, nor is it really about its characters. Spider-Man isn't a physics-based sandbox focused on emergent gameplay scenarios, with an emphasis on freedom in player expression. Why should we compare these unrelated games with differing goals, is what I'm wondering.

 

[Deleted member 2181]

This is part of the reason why they had a "small" marketing campaign. They didn't want to show their entire hand too early. In about 3-4 years we will start to see TotK inspired games. Remember it only took Fenyx Rising 3/4 years to drop after being heavily inspired by BotW.

I'd love to see it, but Breath of the Wild's impact on the industry isn't as large as I would have hoped.

The decisions they've made, specifically in being relatively hands-off on the player experience (or at least seeming that way), isn't something that I think many developers are interested in replicating. They prefer to have more, like, controlled and curated experience it seems to me. But it goes deeper than that even.

There was that controversy a while back regarding the characters "backseating" in God of War: Ragnarok. That stuff was obviously very intentional. But perhaps also a necessary. It's not a coincidence that most of Zelda's heavy puzzle content happens in extremely sterile shrines where the only elements you can see are the elements you need to solve the puzzle.
Recently people were complaining about paint in Resident Evil or something, idk. And again, like, Zelda has a very clean, simplistic art style, where interactable elements and points-of-interest are immediately apparent. You don't have to waste brain power scanning through all sorts of photorealistic clutter.
The cleverness in Zelda's design extends far beyond mechanics and puzzles. It's in how everything is geared to convey relevant information to the player and the removal of any noise from that signal.

And with Tears of the Kingdom, I feel they've done a lot more than push the boat out, they've ultrahanded rockets on the thing. Leaving aside how incredibly difficult this stuff is on every level, from design, to programming, to testing... The reason we can do the things we can do in Tears of the Kingdom is because the series is extremely quirky. You can give Link really bizarre powers like merging through the ceiling. Witcher 4 isn't going to get away with that, right? Or anything remotely like that.
I do think immersive sims might want to go further in physics simulations, particularly in terms of destructible environments/collapsible structures and stuff. That would be really cool to see, but the genre is more niche and the teams don't have the budget that the Zelda team do. And also, how do you make it fun? How do you convey to the player how to do this stuff in a way that doesn't break the immersion? I don't think it's possible without abandoning the tone or the art style that the developers might want for their story or whatever.

I honestly think the Zelda team are walking a path that no-one else in the industry can follow. Those that have the resources don't have the will. Those with the will don't have the resources. But that's fine. I'm so incredibly grateful that this stuff even exists.

 

[kimbo99]

I'd love to see it, but Breath of the Wild's impact on the industry isn't as large as I would have hoped.

The decisions they've made, specifically in being relatively hands-off on the player experience (or at least seeming that way), isn't something that I think many developers are interested in replicating. They prefer to have more, like, controlled and curated experience it seems to me. But it goes deeper than that even.

There was that controversy a while back regarding the characters "backseating" in God of War: Ragnarok. That stuff was obviously very intentional. But perhaps also a necessary. It's not a coincidence that most of Zelda's heavy puzzle content happens in extremely sterile shrines where the only elements you can see are the elements you need to solve the puzzle.
Recently people were complaining about paint in Resident Evil or something, idk. And again, like, Zelda has a very clean, simplistic art style, where interactable elements and points-of-interest are immediately apparent. You don't have to waste brain power scanning through all sorts of photorealistic clutter.
The cleverness in Zelda's design extends far beyond mechanics and puzzles. It's in how everything is geared to convey relevant information to the player and the removal of any noise from that signal.

And with Tears of the Kingdom, I feel they've done a lot more than push the boat out, they've ultrahanded rockets on the thing. Leaving aside how incredibly difficult this stuff is on every level, from design, to programming, to testing... The reason we can do the things we can do in Tears of the Kingdom is because the series is extremely quirky. You can give Link really bizarre powers like merging through the ceiling. Witcher 4 isn't going to get away with that, right? Or anything remotely like that.
I do think immersive sims might want to go further in physics simulations, particularly in terms of destructible environments/collapsible structures and stuff. That would be really cool to see, but the genre is more niche and the teams don't have the budget that the Zelda team do. And also, how do you make it fun? How do you convey to the player how to do this stuff in a way that doesn't break the immersion? I don't think it's possible without abandoning the tone or the art style that the developers might want for their story or whatever.

I honestly think the Zelda team are walking a path that no-one else in the industry can follow. Those that have the resources don't have the will. Those with the will don't have the resources. But that's fine. I'm so incredibly grateful that this stuff even exists.

I liked to look at the smaller things, and the more menial things. For example, Horizon pretty much revamped their climbing mechanics to mimic BoTW and even added a paraglider. While not exclusive to BoTW, it was a great addition. Fenyx pretty much copied BotW word for word. I think we will see TotK have a similar or even greater impact later this gen

 

[Lozjam]

I'd love to see it, but Breath of the Wild's impact on the industry isn't as large as I would have hoped.

The decisions they've made, specifically in being relatively hands-off on the player experience (or at least seeming that way), isn't something that I think many developers are interested in replicating. They prefer to have more, like, controlled and curated experience it seems to me. But it goes deeper than that even.

There was that controversy a while back regarding the characters "backseating" in God of War: Ragnarok. That stuff was obviously very intentional. But perhaps also a necessary. It's not a coincidence that most of Zelda's heavy puzzle content happens in extremely sterile shrines where the only elements you can see are the elements you need to solve the puzzle.
Recently people were complaining about paint in Resident Evil or something, idk. And again, like, Zelda has a very clean, simplistic art style, where interactable elements and points-of-interest are immediately apparent. You don't have to waste brain power scanning through all sorts of photorealistic clutter.
The cleverness in Zelda's design extends far beyond mechanics and puzzles. It's in how everything is geared to convey relevant information to the player and the removal of any noise from that signal.

And with Tears of the Kingdom, I feel they've done a lot more than push the boat out, they've ultrahanded rockets on the thing. Leaving aside how incredibly difficult this stuff is on every level, from design, to programming, to testing... The reason we can do the things we can do in Tears of the Kingdom is because the series is extremely quirky. You can give Link really bizarre powers like merging through the ceiling. Witcher 4 isn't going to get away with that, right? Or anything remotely like that.
I do think immersive sims might want to go further in physics simulations, particularly in terms of destructible environments/collapsible structures and stuff. That would be really cool to see, but the genre is more niche and the teams don't have the budget that the Zelda team do. And also, how do you make it fun? How do you convey to the player how to do this stuff in a way that doesn't break the immersion? I don't think it's possible without abandoning the tone or the art style that the developers might want for their story or whatever.

I honestly think the Zelda team are walking a path that no-one else in the industry can follow. Those that have the resources don't have the will. Those with the will don't have the resources. But that's fine. I'm so incredibly grateful that this stuff even exists.

Oblivion and Morrowind were the first sort of games to do this stuff though with their realistic artstyle for the time though. You had stuff like Levitation, walking on water, illumination, super jump. And it did it relatively well for the time. Bethesda really brought down the scale of this as time went on, but it used to be a staple of the series. But stuff like this used to be extremely common in WRPG's. It's really kind of ironic that Japanese developers and western flipped roles in this regard.

 

[julian]

I don’t doubt the technical marvel that is ToTK, but I feel like the premise of the thread would be stronger if it wasn’t multiple tweets from the same person plus a couple other people responding and only one of those people actually writes game code.

 

[Arrietty]

That year of polish has done wonders huh

 

[Kreese]

I don’t doubt the technical marvel that is ToTK, but I feel like the premise of the thread would be stronger if it wasn’t multiple tweets from the same person plus a couple other people responding and only one of those people actually writes game code.

There's several devs cited in the articles below and I could probably find a lot more but I figured we would just discuss different devs analysis throughout the course of the thread.

I'll probably add a bunch more to the OP later

Game devs praise viral Zelda Tears of the Kingdom puzzle: "No physics engine I ever worked with could do this easily"

"This is the 2023 version of the Last of Us Part 2 rope physics"

www.gamesradar.com

Game dev blown away by Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom says it "shouldn't be possible on the Switch"

"Nintendo's out here making people look like fools on hardware that's literally tenfold what the Switch is"

www.yahoo.com

Why Tears of the Kingdom’s bridge physics have game developers wowed

What looks simple is actually very hard to make

www.polygon.com

 

[Gingerbread Man]

I'd love to see it, but Breath of the Wild's impact on the industry isn't as large as I would have hoped.

The decisions they've made, specifically in being relatively hands-off on the player experience (or at least seeming that way), isn't something that I think many developers are interested in replicating. They prefer to have more, like, controlled and curated experience it seems to me. But it goes deeper than that even.

There was that controversy a while back regarding the characters "backseating" in God of War: Ragnarok. That stuff was obviously very intentional. But perhaps also a necessary. It's not a coincidence that most of Zelda's heavy puzzle content happens in extremely sterile shrines where the only elements you can see are the elements you need to solve the puzzle.
Recently people were complaining about paint in Resident Evil or something, idk. And again, like, Zelda has a very clean, simplistic art style, where interactable elements and points-of-interest are immediately apparent. You don't have to waste brain power scanning through all sorts of photorealistic clutter.
The cleverness in Zelda's design extends far beyond mechanics and puzzles. It's in how everything is geared to convey relevant information to the player and the removal of any noise from that signal.

And with Tears of the Kingdom, I feel they've done a lot more than push the boat out, they've ultrahanded rockets on the thing. Leaving aside how incredibly difficult this stuff is on every level, from design, to programming, to testing... The reason we can do the things we can do in Tears of the Kingdom is because the series is extremely quirky. You can give Link really bizarre powers like merging through the ceiling. Witcher 4 isn't going to get away with that, right? Or anything remotely like that.
I do think immersive sims might want to go further in physics simulations, particularly in terms of destructible environments/collapsible structures and stuff. That would be really cool to see, but the genre is more niche and the teams don't have the budget that the Zelda team do. And also, how do you make it fun? How do you convey to the player how to do this stuff in a way that doesn't break the immersion? I don't think it's possible without abandoning the tone or the art style that the developers might want for their story or whatever.

I honestly think the Zelda team are walking a path that no-one else in the industry can follow. Those that have the resources don't have the will. Those with the will don't have the resources. But that's fine. I'm so incredibly grateful that this stuff even exists.

I agree with your post. But the problem seems self-imposed. The Western AAA industry is working under belief that massive, realistic, cinematic games are the path forward. But are they? Zelda shows that AAA games of another kind are possible.

Like... Invest less in dubbing every single line, and adopt a more cartoony art style (just like BotW/TotK takes inspiration from Miyazaki's works, there A LOT of French, Italian and South American comics they could look at). You'll end up with more money for physics simulation, and a more abstract world for fun adventures, just like Zelda.

 

[Kreese]

The game is constantly in this sweet spot between a realistic simulation and an enjoyable experience. BotW is a masterpiece, but it truly was a technical prototype for TotK, it did turn the crank up to 11!



The GDC channel on Youtube and the GDCVault site (https://www.gdcvault.com/) have a lot videos.

1000% agree with this

A lot of people take issue with this statement because they loved BOTW (I did) but it's not even really an insult. TOTK is just a very fleshed out evolution of the BOTW open world formula

 

[Phendrift]

1000% agree with this

A lot of people take issue with this statement because they loved BOTW (I did) but it's not even really an insult. TOTK is just a very fleshed out evolution of the BOTW open world formula

I would even say anyone who loved BotW should love to hear that description.

As someone who loved it but recognized the potential as even greater. It was just the starting point

 

[Kreese]

 

[correojon]

I would even say anyone who loved BotW should love to hear that description.

As someone who loved it but recognized the potential as even greater. It was just the starting point

Yeah, that statement is not throwing any shade at all at BotW. We all saw BotW as the start of something new, a masterpiece with huge space for growth and TotK is just fullfilling that promise.

It‘s far from a realistic simulation (not more so than other games with physics), but they polished the physics based system to an almost unbelievable degree and used many tricks to fake things in a really smart way.

Not sure about them using tricks, in my experience when you start adding stuff like that you cause problems elsewhere and you end up with a solution where, if not used as intended, will break horribly. That approach may work when you intend to use it in a very controlled environment, like the rope example in TLoU2.
This doesn't seem to be the case with TotK, they really seem to have polished the engine with BotW and then have kept building and polishing on top of it for TotK. Of course they surely have applied a lot of simplifications, but I don't think they're "faking things in a real smart way".

 

[DrJay]

Definitely impressive. Whether that level of dedication to physics is worth it or almost self-indulgent is up to you though. Interesting debate to have.

I don’t see how anyone can say it’s self indulgent. It’s the focus of the game. There is only realism when there is a gameplay reason for it, and no system that can’t be used to enhance gameplay. It’s very restrained, and it would probably have to be considering it runs on switch. It’s a miracle of editing and saying “no”.

 

[Hermii]

Since he is saying the big mystery is that the cpu can handle it, I think they're running as much physics as they possibly can on the gpu.

 

[Hocot8]

There's several devs cited in the articles below and I could probably find a lot more but I figured we would just discuss different devs analysis throughout the course of the thread.

I'll probably add a bunch more to the OP later

Game devs praise viral Zelda Tears of the Kingdom puzzle: "No physics engine I ever worked with could do this easily"

"This is the 2023 version of the Last of Us Part 2 rope physics"

www.gamesradar.com

Game dev blown away by Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom says it "shouldn't be possible on the Switch"

"Nintendo's out here making people look like fools on hardware that's literally tenfold what the Switch is"

www.yahoo.com

Why Tears of the Kingdom’s bridge physics have game developers wowed

What looks simple is actually very hard to make

www.polygon.com

That last paragraph in the polygon article is exactly what separates Nintendo from 90% of major studios in the industry.

 

[lexony]

Not sure about them using tricks, in my experience when you start adding stuff like that you cause problems elsewhere and you end up with a solution where, if not used as intended, will break horribly. That approach may work when you intend to use it in a very controlled environment, like the rope example in TLoU2.
This doesn't seem to be the case with TotK, they really seem to have polished the engine with BotW and then have kept building and polishing on top of it for TotK. Of course they surely have applied a lot of simplifications, but I don't think they're "faking things in a real smart way".

By tricks I mean that they have elegant but also cheap solutions for any eventual shortcomings caused by their mechanics, engine or having a limited cpu/gpu budget.

A good example is the ascend mechanic. Link is not always perfectly hidden in the ceiling or the camera could clip through, but when that happens, they have an animation ready.

Or going down in the depths. It is impressive that you can go without any loading from the sky into the underground but the darkness really helps there to hide stuff a lot I imagine. Same is true for example with the Storm hiding the Orni tempel (or lod version of it) while still having an impressive set piece which you can access without any loading screen.

For all the abilities they set limits where needed by timers, how far away you‘re going from an object, walking speed of Link or how many objects you can attach. Not to mention that the game kinda resets itself when going into shrines or mainly while the Bloodmoon. All this could had been annoying but they made it in a way that it dosen‘t influence at all (or at least only very slightly) gameplay.

Don’t get me wrong it‘s crazy how polished the game is and that the physical elements don‘t break it, but it was only possible because they knew how to mange their engine by creating systems that are solution to like 5 things at the time and search for workarounds. The game is a miracle exactly because Nintendo knows how to simplify stuff where other AAA developers might use a lot of resources because they want to keep it "realistic" or for various other reasons.

 

[correojon]

By tricks I mean that they have elegant but also cheap solutions for any eventual shortcomings caused by their mechanics, engine or having a limited cpu/gpu budget.

A good example is the ascend mechanic. Link is not always perfectly hidden in the ceiling or the camera could clip through, but when that happens, they have an animation ready.

Or going down in the depths. It is impressive that you can go without any loading from the sky into the underground but the darkness really helps there to hide stuff a lot I imagine. Same is true for example with the Storm hiding the Orni tempel (or lod version of it) while still having an impressive set piece which you can access without any loading screen.

For all the abilities they set limits where needed by timers, how far away you‘re going from an object, walking speed of Link or how many objects you can attach. Not to mention that the game kinda resets itself when going into shrines or mainly while the Bloodmoon. All this could had been annoying but they made it in a way that it dosen‘t influence at all (or at least only very slightly) gameplay.

Don’t get me wrong it‘s crazy how polished the game is and that the physical elements don‘t break it, but it was only possible because they knew how to mange their engine by creating systems that are solution to like 5 things at the time and search for workarounds. The game is a miracle exactly because Nintendo knows how to simplify stuff where other AAA developers might use a lot of resources because they want to keep it "realistic" or for various other reasons.

Those are great points. I think the one about how they can create systems that are the solution to 5 things is the most important: This is a consequence of the design philosophy at Nintendo that is employed in all of their games and which starts by putting gameplay at the core center. And this is something they already have 40+ years of expertise in: The core design principles of Nintendo can be seen in something like the first Mario.
As an opposite example, look at GoW2018's combat: The focus is put on narrative and presentation, so those create the constraints the combat system has to work around, like having the camera over the shoulder or having to feature Atreus. The designers had to design "patches" to each of these problems, mitigating the problems they were causing, but at no point were they able to make big design changes or address the causes instead of the symptons. Now see Splatoon, were tofu blocks evolved into rabbits and finally into inklings, with the whole game being strongly cohesive with many systems that feed into each other because it was all designed around the "ink" concept. Once this was established, all the game can be developed with all the teams pushing in the same direction, instead of each of them going their own way following their own priorities and then having to force one team to adapt to another.

 

[krypt]

I think we are having Donkey Kong SNES moment and im here for it.

 

[Irene]

Can only agree 100%

Last night, I messed around and built a vehicle with ultrahand, and I decided to drag that thing from the place where I built it (Hateno) towards Hyrule Field where I could drive around more freely. And between those places, there's a forest. The thing got caught in the trees a lot, and the tires, that have elastic properties, kept bending it out of shape. But despite all these incredibly complex interactions and variables, the thing never broke down. The game didn't lag. I didn't lose any control of the vehicle. I could still fully rotate it, and some parts would still get stuck in the trees, while other parts would wrestle itself free.

I was just left completely, utterly stunned. It's unfathomable how it all just works. I eventually ended up giving up and fast traveled to Hyrule Field and rebuilt it there, but the experience of trying to nestle through the trees and marvel at the physics will always stick with me.

Also, in regards to the bridges that went viral, I was blown away when it turns out that they wobble for a while when you attach them depending on the tension, and you can ascend through them, while they're still wobbling. Like, you see the ascend symbol go from green, red, green, red because the bridge becomes quickly ascendable and non-ascendable depending on the wobble.

 

[Kingpin722]

When 360/PS3 launched I felt like, compared to now, more games emphasized details like physics and interactivity over visuals. Here’s Gears 2 vs Gears 5. It’s no reason Gears 2 physics should’ve better.

Same with GTA IV having an incredible physics engine but they scaled back on it with GTA 5.

Hope TOTK inspires devs to try and get the most out the amazing hardware they have at disposal.

 

[damondamon]

I'm most curious about the steering wheels. Mind you, I'm not a programmer and my knowledge is very superficial, but I wonder how they managed to have the steering wheels work with every abomination the players can come up with, in the way you would expect it to work as well. I have made lots of random builds and glued the steering wheel on top and it just control the whole thing perfectly.

 

[meatbag]

I'm most curious about the steering wheels

Dammit, you’re blowing my mind because now that I think about it… wow.

Hope TOTK inspires devs to try and get the most out the amazing hardware they have at disposal

What I’m happiest about Tears of the Kingdom is that it’s pretty much an immersive sim. One of my favorite gaming genres, one that doesn’t usually see much commercial success, and TotK swoops in and shows, this is how you make an im-sim with wide appeal.

I would be very happy if other devs take notes and build their games upon layers of emergent systems.

 

[Pokemaniac]

I'm most curious about the steering wheels. Mind you, I'm not a programmer and my knowledge is very superficial, but I wonder how they managed to have the steerting wheels work with every abomination the players I can come up with, the way you would expect it to work. I have made lots of random builds and glue the steer wheel on top and it just control the whole thing perfectly.

Yeah, of the various Zonai devices, the steering stick is probably low key the most impressive one. I suspect it's probably cheating the physics a bit, but having it work so naturally in every possible situation is nothing short of amazing.

 

[Mekanos]

I'm most curious about the steering wheels. Mind you, I'm not a programmer and my knowledge is very superficial, but I wonder how they managed to have the steerting wheels work with every abomination the players I can come up with, the way you would expect it to work. I have made lots of random builds and glue the steer wheel on top and it just control the whole thing perfectly.

Yeah, of the various Zonai devices, the steering stick is probably low key the most impressive one. I suspect it's probably cheating the physics a bit, but having it work so naturally in every possible situation is nothing short of amazing.

Steering is definitely where the game moves into magic. You can attach it to all sorts of random shit, and it will still work. Towards the end of the game, there is a dungeon macguffin that you have to turn into a car to progress, and I could not believe it was functional by slapping a steering stick on it.

It also makes crafting so much more approachable. I was worried it would be complex but being able to just throw it on top of something and make it work is unlike anything I've ever seen in a video game.

 

[damondamon]

Steering is definitely where the game moves into magic. You can attach it to all sorts of random shit, and it will still work. Towards the end of the game, there is a dungeon macguffin that you have to turn into a car to progress, and I could not believe it was functional by slapping a steering stick on it.

It also makes crafting so much more approachable. I was worried it would be complex but being able to just throw it on top of something and make it work is unlike anything I've ever seen in a video game.

I agree. They definitely wanted to make building as approachable as possible, and isn't a pain where you have to assemble materials in a certain way for it to work. In the ask developer interview, they did mention some staff would make the most elaborate constructions while some prioritised simplicity, so they are aware for sure. I can't wait for more in depth interviews and talks from them!

 

[PixelKnight]

I'm most curious about the steering wheels. Mind you, I'm not a programmer and my knowledge is very superficial, but I wonder how they managed to have the steering wheels work with every abomination the players can come up with, in the way you would expect it to work as well. I have made lots of random builds and glued the steering wheel on top and it just control the whole thing perfectly.

It made me wonder whether there’s something going on that first identifies what the manoeuvre and propulsion and friction and weight elements are going on, as steering on a basic, ‘four wheels and a slab’, car works in that you can go forwards and reverse like a car. I then thought ‘well maybe it ignores the height and just lets the fans and rockets and balloons handle that’, but steering also lets you push forward to tip down and pull back to ascend in a 3D space. At which point I stopped trying to guess how it all works. As it’s not even going ‘is this a viable vehicle?’, when you can steer whatever shitty contraption you can think of!

 

[ILikeFeet]

When 360/PS3 launched I felt like, compared to now, more games emphasized details like physics and interactivity over visuals. Here’s Gears 2 vs Gears 5. It’s no reason Gears 2 physics should’ve better.

Same with GTA IV having an incredible physics engine but they scaled back on it with GTA 5.

Hope TOTK inspires devs to try and get the most out the amazing hardware they have at disposal.

that video isn't a demonstration of physics but animation.

with GTA4, I have grievances with that game so I'm inherently biased towards GTA5

but games in general are just designed in a way that extensive physics sims don't really lend itself to the games. that's not to say they can't be better, but I think a lot of the problem is just that it's a game design one that takes resources.

 

[Smash Kirby]

GDC 2024:

Nintendo: Each copy of the game contains the soul of a lost child which helps stabilizes the game and minimized bugs.

Developers: Oh my god, that's horrifying. But if you put two souls into each copy, that should stabilize games even further, correct? Does the age of the child matter?

Good old personalized copies.

 

[kvetcha]

Good old personalized copies.

Ghost in the Shell 2 except GTA VI instead of gynoids.

 

[brainchild]

The emergent systems in TOTK are designed quite elegantly. A lot of people don't realize (unless they've seen the GDC talks) that the art style helps a lot with smoothing over the rough edges of physics simulation, since it's easier for the devs to take creative liberties without the result feeling jarring. But the code itself must also be really efficient and well-optimized; it's a perfect example of "work smarter, not harder". It's amazing what you can do with creativity and ingenuity instead of brute force.

 

[Deleted member 1896]

Definitely impressive. Whether that level of dedication to physics is worth it or almost self-indulgent is up to you though. Interesting debate to have.

The philosophy behind it is an important antithesis to modern Western game design. That being that a game is meant to be played and interacted with, not experienced passively. There's an argument to make that regardless of whether your game has complex physics or not, its systems should be at the center of the experience, and they should receive the lion's share of development resources.

Today's graphics are good enough almost across the board, so making the same games on the same systems over and over again with prettier graphics ultimately just cannibalizes sales of previous entries. The industry is obviously aware of this as more games are increasingly becoming services.

When you heavily invest in systems your game has much more evergreen potential. Think about some of the longest lasting games: Monopoly is still popular a century later, and it isn't because of the occasional Star Wars skin. Chess is probably a millennium old and hasn't changed much in that time. Tetris is still as fun as ever, so much so that just porting it to a new platform is basically a guaranteed money maker.

 

[Lozjam]

I know people are so focused on the building aspect. But we should also appreciate the top tier AI. They have introduced full on battles with a potential of over 50 npcs with their own factions. Nobody ever seems to get stuck, and literally everyone contributes. It honestly puts most warriors game to absolute shame, and that's one of the main concepts the warriors games were built upon.

 

[Deleted member 887]

Underrated technical wonders in Tears of the Kingdom - the lack of traversal stutter.

In extreme movement cases I could make stutter happen in 1.1, but 1.1.1 has fixed any stutter I could create. When you compare what Nintendo is doing running off a GameCard to what, say, Jedi Survivor is doing off of an SSD, you appreciate how miraculous the asset streaming system - and actor management system - is.

 

[Deleted member 2]

Definitely impressive. Whether that level of dedication to physics is worth it or almost self-indulgent is up to you though. Interesting debate to have.

Lol what? There is no debate there, wtf.

 

[Jencks]

Self indulgent? What the fuck?

 

[meatbag]

They have introduced full on battles with a potential of over 50 npcs with their own factions. Nobody ever seems to get stuck, and literally everyone contributes

Another salient observation. I was honestly surprised that your ally NPCs can and do finish off enemies. They won't be defeating the strongest ones but they can clean up the grunts even if you leave them alone. It's honestly fascinating to watch.

the lack of traversal stutter

I've only ever managed to make the game stutter by whooshing at ridiculous speeds, otherwise it all works as intended. That they managed this on a tablet is incredible.

 

[Notsowise]

The most amazing thing about this game is that i keep finding new places and when I search about it on the internet, no one knows what the heck I’m talking about.

 

[correojon]

Steering is definitely where the game moves into magic. You can attach it to all sorts of random shit, and it will still work. Towards the end of the game, there is a dungeon macguffin that you have to turn into a car to progress, and I could not believe it was functional by slapping a steering stick on it.

It also makes crafting so much more approachable. I was worried it would be complex but being able to just throw it on top of something and make it work is unlike anything I've ever seen in a video game.

The steering stick is an absolute core element to the game and the best example of the gameplay-first approach of Nintendo. Without it, the vehicles just wouldn't work: It would make the building system almost self-indulgent like that other poster (incorrectly, IMHO) said. However, instead of just slapping this complex system into the game "because they can", it was designed for it to be fun, that's why we have stuff like lasers and aiming devices along stabilizers, differently sized wheels, rockets and such. Other sims lay out the tools and put the responsibility of having fun on the player, but TotK has the puzzle shrines to teach you how every device can be used in different ways. You also have schematics and Yiga vehicles to see more complex working examples and then you have other puzzles and challenges in the world, like the Koroks or the overworld shrine stone puzzles, to make you exercise them. It works so well because it has the technical prowress to be able to materialze such a powerful system and the design expertise to make it FUN for the player...and obviously FUN was put at the center to guide how the system should be tweaked.

 

[xtoc]

Its not only the physics engine thats impressove but also in combination with the chemistry engine. Also the best wheater system with wind that affects fire and items and everything actually. At this, i didnt see any other game engine that is on par with botw, so i dont even start with comparing anything with totk.

I think if they could improve things is like tornados (which is already a zelda thing before), tsunami's, but more like when for instance a group of enemies are on a small island and nearby is a mountain with a huge rock which can be dropped which genrratzs a huge wave. Not only tsunami's but just waves as well. Or vulcan with lava flow. Maybe some floods. Eartquakes and so on. I think water in general can be an important element. I dony think if you build an open box with masterhand that the water would stay in that box. But if it would, it could be used for puzzles. Like taking water from some pool in a shrine too fill some other whole or by empty the pool on the right water level hight to solve a puzzle. Or combining 2 water planks diagonal to create a waterflow. I think also that they could add an improved statis here you can lock an item and point out the direction with the dualanalog (which also decide how strong you want the object to go in that direction).

That said, world design wise i would think more detailed design. Like having a lake with a small house or having a more closed forest parts. I would be ok to have the same size as botw if the level is more detailed (but still open). Imo, curiosity within a zelda game is really important aspect.

 

[Jersh]

It made me wonder whether there’s something going on that first identifies what the manoeuvre and propulsion and friction and weight elements are going on, as steering on a basic, ‘four wheels and a slab’, car works in that you can go forwards and reverse like a car. I then thought ‘well maybe it ignores the height and just lets the fans and rockets and balloons handle that’, but steering also lets you push forward to tip down and pull back to ascend in a 3D space. At which point I stopped trying to guess how it all works. As it’s not even going ‘is this a viable vehicle?’, when you can steer whatever shitty contraption you can think of!

It seems to follow a few simple rules, as far as I can tell:

-If you're not rigidly supported by the ground, tilt. This handles turning for basically any water/air vehicle, as well as pitch for air (which will affect things differently depending on whether it's a wing or something more like a drone).

-If there's wheels, some steering logic/mapping is applied. Forward drives them faster. Back reverses. Left/right do differential things to handle turning.

I haven't built anything too crazy, but I have built a lot and this seems to explain most or all of what I've dealt with.

No idea how it'd handle wheels facing different directions lol

Yeah, of the various Zonai devices, the steering stick is probably low key the most impressive one. I suspect it's probably cheating the physics a bit, but having it work so naturally in every possible situation is nothing short of amazing.

Yeah, it does seem to smooth things out as well, like the whole system is more likely to be stable if you're using a steering stick.

 

[Aostia82]

The most amazing thing about this game is that i keep finding new places and when I search about it on the internet, no one knows what the heck I’m talking about.

this is another great topic to be discussed haha

 

[Deleted member 887]

I've only ever managed to make the game stutter by whooshing at ridiculous speeds, otherwise it all works as intended. That they managed this on a tablet is incredible.

I could do the same - till the latest patch and now I can't even do that. It's not even that Nintendo managed to make an open world game engine like this, because they did it with Breath of the Wild, but they effectively tripled the amount of area that the game covers - and because they did it vertically they have to load those assets simultaneously.

They cheat a little with the underworld only being accessible through chasms where they can hide the swapping out of radically different assets, and a cloud layer that helps cover loading lower poly assets when falling/ascending, but it's still a hell of a thing.

 

[Lord Azrael]

I agree with your post. But the problem seems self-imposed. The Western AAA industry is working under belief that massive, realistic, cinematic games are the path forward. But are they? Zelda shows that AAA games of another kind are possible.

This feels like a very outdated take. Cinematic games aren't really the big thing anymore. They're mainly Sony's thing, and even they are starting to move away from it. They might be what you see mainly advertised in insular AAA gaming events, but on the whole they no longer comprise the largest percentage of successful modern games. Nowadays the trend to chase is multiplayer (battle royale optional) GaaS. And all the biggest games - Minecraft, Fortnite, etc. - are by and large freeform sandbox experiences.

 

[GrislyRaccoon]

That last paragraph in the polygon article is exactly what separates Nintendo from 90% of major studios in the industry.

One of my cousins did like a small contracted work with Nintendo, he said he wished he was permanent. He didn't seem to shut about working with Nintendo. I know some contracted workers had problems with them, but it seems its according to the department.