Discussion There will never be another game like Super Paper Mario (Picture Heavy)

[BassForever]

When I first played SPM, I called it the first misstep of the PM IP. The flip gimmick ran out of clever ideas pretty early on, and jumping on enemies always felt weird in flip world. Bowser was genuinely OP especially with carry to remove his weaknesses. While it still had the incredibly smart writing we loved PM for, it also really doubled down on the worst of PM's padding segments like when the game literally screeches to a halt for Mario to run in a hamster wheel to pay off a debt.

Of course, in retrospect, I now view it as the "last good" title because despite it's faults it still tried to be a true PM game. It still made a conscious effort to have rpg mechanics, a party of characters you could pick from, clever puzzles, and that masterful writing.

 

[Lucifer]

See, this is where I don't agree. It's not that they used to be more strict. It's that fans never understood what the guidelines actually were. So stuff like "No OCs" started getting parroted even though that was never true.

It doesn't matter what the actual guidelines were, or that people exaggerate. There's a group of people that felt Mario played it safe for years, which is a stark contrast to where Mario is at now.

 

[xghost777]

Love Super Paper Mario! I replayed it last year and it absolutely holds up. The core game is breezy fun, but there’s a lot of clever twists and setpieces that keep things interesting throughout. I also love the bizarre story beats and unique characters. Mimi is definitely my favorite and more disturbing than I remembered haha. I’ll never forget the stretch from the samurai kingdom with the black hole apocalypse to the Underwhere and Overthere. Also yes, the hamster wheel prison labor section is by far the weirdest thing in Mario history as far as I’m concerned lol.

 

[switchum]

I see an SPM-related post so I am obligated to respond:

I love this game. So much. I was still a little kid when I got it, in my earliest days of adoring Nintendo. I remember seeing the box in Best Buy, assumed it would be like the New Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Galaxy games I'd recently gotten into, and put it on my Christmas wish list.

I remember getting the game for Christmas and was super excited to play, but when I started, I was so weirded out. Keep in mind that I was not knowledgable about Nintendo products and pretty much just knew Nintendo as the company that made the Wii and DS, consoles I could play Mario and Pokémon on. I had no idea what "Paper Mario" was; like I said, I just saw "Mario" on the box and that was all I needed (and expected).

So when the game opened with a minutes-long cutscene featuring Mario and Luigi chilling in their house, Bowser telling his minions that they need to remain clean-shaven, and a talking butterfly appearing after some evil count, I was really confused. What do you mean, Bowser's not the bad guy?!

But the more I played, the more I fell in love with the game. I had so much fun exploring Flipside, going into the different establishments and using the Flip mechanic to run around the town's outskirts. I distinctly remember the feeling I felt as I went through each individual chapter, from exploring Merlee's Mansion on a real-life stormy day to having a friend over while I explored space on my projectile-launching octopus. I got stuck pretty early on and asked my mom to buy me the guidebook on Amazon, which I still have proudly displayed on my bookshelf all these years later. (Along with the Pokémon Platinum guidebook, it actually started a love of guidebook collecting within me, something I continue to work on today). I remember pouring through the pages of my guidebook, often reading it purely for leisure even when the game wasn't on.

I could go on and on about this game, but to sum it up: this is such a comfort game for me, and its utter weirdness is a huge contributor to that. Reading through the OP, I can see why someone who's never played this game would find it incredibly bizarre and potentially off-putting, but because of all these years of loving it and multiple playthroughs, these concepts have just become so normal to me.

At the same time, at an older age, I recognize that the game is full of flaws. I am completely aware that tons of this love comes from nostalgia - I'm not denying it. In fact, I played TTYD for the first time years later as a teenager, and I can say that from an "objective" standpoint (for lack of a better word), I find that game to be superior to SPM in so many ways. If someone wants to try the series out, I would always recommend TTYD first and foremost as I feel it's the strongest entry, in the sense that the most people would probably enjoy it more. In fact, whenever I recommend SPM, I always tell them about the game's strangeness, and I recognize it's definitely not for everyone. I would go so far as to say that I completely understand why some people might totally hate it, especially if they started with PM64 and TTYD.

But man... this is my #1 most-nostalgic game, and you just can't beat that. Despite all its flaws and issues, and the fact that I find other entries in the Paper Mario series to be superior for what they actually do, this game will always remain one of my all-time favourites and one that I'm always excited to jump back into.

 

[Hailinel]

It doesn't matter what the actual guidelines were, or that people exaggerate. There's a group of people that felt Mario played it safe for years, which is a stark contrast to where Mario is at now.

It does matter when fans blame a fictional hardline mandate and not the developers just going through a period where they felt risk-averse.

 

[crepuscule]

I just wanted to pop in here and an SPM fan and recommend the closest game I've played that gives me the same feeling. It's a cutetroidvania by the name of Wuppo.

Here's a post I previously wrote about the game.

-

First, here's the launch trailer to give you a good idea of what the game is like, since screens don't quite do its storybook aesthetic justice:

So let me say I love Paper Mario in all of its forms, including its recent polarizing iterations. To me the most funny and surprising Paper Mario game was Super Paper Mario. Wuppo embodies the spirit of a Nintendo game for me, and it especially feels like a spiritual successor to SPM. It's funny in the same way that game is funny. It's also surprisingly poignant in the same kind of way SPM was (#Bleck was right).

You play as a wum, a roundish little individual that sits around the wumhouse all day watching TV. Your adventure starts when the siren call of a delectable ice cream cone brings you to the front desk of your apartment complex.

For a Metroidvania-ish-thingie, or as I like to call it a Cutetroidvania™, this game offers some very diverse locales to visit. What I love about Cutetroidvanias and Metroidvanias in general is the interesting places you get to go and the new game mechanics which allow you to visit them.

So, the interesting places you visit include:

-Popo City, an underground socialist city
-Wondersplenk, an amusement park
-The cradle of primitive civilization
-The ends of our very dimension
-And more!

As you go you'll meet all kinds of fascinating and hilarious characters. You know the part of Paper Mario Color Splash (that none of you heathens played) where you meet the Shy Guy with the existential crisis? A lot of the NPCs in Wuppo are similarly unique, offbeat and endearing. The dialogue trees are endlessly captivating to read through. Another thing I really like about 2D adventure games is the NPCs you meet. I love reading through their various dialogue and seeing what happens if you say unusual things to them. The main character in Wuppo is hilariously expressive in his reactions which just adds to the joy of playing the game. You also have a partner character on hand commentating on the action at times, and to an enjoyable degree, without being overbearing.

Per Unseen64, inspirations for the game include not only Paper Mario but also Rayman 2 and 3, Undertale, Mass Effect and Banjo-Tooie, especially in terms of interacting with the world and its inhabitants. I think all of these influences shine through in interesting ways.

Like SPM, the focus isn't on action but on exploration, platforming and 2D adventure game logic. You traverse the world, learn new moves, figure your way around some open dungeon-y type areas, meet interesting characters, and partake in some combat here and there. There is some backtracking to be done, and the world feels open and connected in an organic and incredibly well thought out way.

When action does come to the fore, it's mainly in the form of boss battles. These are a 2D twin stick bullet hell style of boss battles. Let me just say the game offers a difficulty setting you can change at any time. I was tempted to switch to Easy on a couple occasions but resisted and managed to make it through the game on Normal. I am seriously terrible at bullet hell games, but the bosses are so fun and creative that I am glad I powered through and was able to beat all of the main and secret bosses on offer, including the one that only shows up during a certain time of year.

Another thing I enjoy is Sidequests. The major sidequest in Wuppo is collecting filmstrips. (There are a whole bunch of others, too.) What's awesome about these filmstrips is that they're the main form of entertainment of the inhabitants of the world of Wuppo, so in collecting them you get to learn more about the game lore (delicious, delectable LORE), you get to watch a hilariously crudely drawn filmstrip, and you see how the characters who man the little theaters react to what's shown on film. One of these characters for example refuses to watch a diary filmstrip with you, but at a different screening area the character will think reading someone's diary is about the funniest thing ever.

Also the game has some primitive cro-magnon characters that are basically talking flowers, and their dialogue and attempts at making filmstrips are legit LOL-worthy.

There is also a vast array of mini games, from taking up a newspaper delivery job, to competing in tests of wum pinballing, to muddy volleyball deep in a sinkhole forgotten by civilization.

How long is this game?

HLTB estimates 8.5 hours main story, 14 completionist. I'm guessing we put in a good 20 hours to 99.5% the game, and that's with barely touching an optional side mode.

Currently 90% off on Switch and Steam, is Deck verified, and has a demo so I'll definitely try it, thanks for the rec.

 

[DiddyRescue]

Are these guidelines the same thing as the discussion surrounding the so called Mario mandate that supposedly never existed and was ultimately a design choice by the designer's own wish? Phew, that's a mouthful...

Anyway, I loved Super Paper Mario back when it released and recently replayed it, while I still found it a unique game I believe it's for the better that it will remain just that single game.

It was a very enjoyable experimental game, but I don't think the 3rd dimension did the game much good save for a few navigational gimmicks that could have been targeted differently just as well. Besides that the cooking mechanic from Paper Mario was very badly implemented in SPM and redundant because it came waaaay too late in the game. Then, from the Ninja chapter onwards the game suddenly feels rushed very badly. Such a shame. I did love the RPG mechanics but with some fooling around they were easy exploitable.

... Just my take, because I initially believed it was a awesome game until I replayed it years later and saw more flaws that put me off. I still love it for what it was but I will not remember it like a once in a lifetime experience.

Except Paper Mario being mandated is a fact.

The producer stated that "all character designs have to pass a check by our IP team, which is pretty strict" and "From the production of Paper Mario: Sticker Star onwards, we were no longer able to graphically represent individual characteristics, such as age, gender etc., in the Toad NPCs"

Mandate: "to officially require (something)" (Merriam-Webster dictionary definition)

A strict IP team requiring Toads to have no age, no gender, and no unique characteristics, is not a freely made design choice. It is a mandate by definition.

 

[WestEgg]

Except Paper Mario being mandated is a fact.

The producer stated that "all character designs have to pass a check by our IP team, which is pretty strict" and "From the production of Paper Mario: Sticker Star onwards, we were no longer able to graphically represent individual characteristics, such as age, gender etc., in the Toad NPCs"

Mandate: "to officially require (something)" (Merriam-Webster dictionary definition)

A strict IP team requiring Toads to have no age, no gender, and no unique characteristics, is not a freely made design choice. It is a mandate by definition.

Did you register an account just to bump a year old thread with a pedantic correction that only served to further already contentious Paper Mario discourse?

 

[Cheetah6442]

Except Paper Mario being mandated is a fact.

The producer stated that "all character designs have to pass a check by our IP team, which is pretty strict" and "From the production of Paper Mario: Sticker Star onwards, we were no longer able to graphically represent individual characteristics, such as age, gender etc., in the Toad NPCs"

Mandate: "to officially require (something)" (Merriam-Webster dictionary definition)

A strict IP team requiring Toads to have no age, no gender, and no unique characteristics, is not a freely made design choice. It is a mandate by definition.

Amigo, did you really had to bump a 9 month old thread for this, considering how discussion around these types of things go(and this is coming from someone who's sometimes vocally critical of the modern formula)?

 

[Hailinel]

Except Paper Mario being mandated is a fact.

The producer stated that "all character designs have to pass a check by our IP team, which is pretty strict" and "From the production of Paper Mario: Sticker Star onwards, we were no longer able to graphically represent individual characteristics, such as age, gender etc., in the Toad NPCs"

Mandate: "to officially require (something)" (Merriam-Webster dictionary definition)

A strict IP team requiring Toads to have no age, no gender, and no unique characteristics, is not a freely made design choice. It is a mandate by definition.

MrBones, is that you?

 

[VintoWin]

My opinion:

We're going to get original toads again for sure. But idk if they will have weird anatomies.
I can see TTYD's style being continued. They still look like toads but they wear unique clothes and have unique identities.

I guess you are trying to say Super Paper Mario is even more zany than TTYD? Yeah probably. Idk it's arguable. TTYD is literally more down to earth but idk if the story themes are. It's pretty close. They are both pretty zany games.

Originality is coming back but idk what extent. Look at Odyssey and Wonder.

EDIT: whoops, I thought this was a new thread.

 

[DiddyRescue]

MrBones, is that you?

No? I just thought it was worth fact-checking. I don't really get why you'd see it as something fictional or a made up bogeyman, when the developers themselves have stated restrictions from the IP team are a fact.

And sorry for the bump, didn't realize how awkward it would be

 

[Razgriz]

Except Paper Mario being mandated is a fact.

The producer stated that "all character designs have to pass a check by our IP team, which is pretty strict" and "From the production of Paper Mario: Sticker Star onwards, we were no longer able to graphically represent individual characteristics, such as age, gender etc., in the Toad NPCs"

Mandate: "to officially require (something)" (Merriam-Webster dictionary definition)

A strict IP team requiring Toads to have no age, no gender, and no unique characteristics, is not a freely made design choice. It is a mandate by definition.

The thing is, from what we can tell of Nintendo's other third-party games, the Nintendo Mandate is pretty lenient. They'll check everything and anything to make sure they're not walking head-first into an IP failure, but as a whole, Nintendo is pretty lenient on what you can do with their characters and adding a new cast of original faces to them generally hasn't caused problems before for third party devs.

The "Paper Mario mandate" technically can be blamed on Kensuke Tanabe; Miyamoto demo'ed Sticker Star during development and made a stray comment about "why not just use characters from the main series" (I think he specifically mentioned a cutoff point around Mario World?). Tanabe then took that advice as if it were a mandate, which is what mostly led to the homogenization of Paper Mario as a brand. It's the main reason why Sticker Star ended up as awful as it did; they had to last-minute rework the entire game from what I understand because of that stray comment.

In that way, Tanabe is pretty much the opposite from Koizumi, who actively sparred with Miyamoto during the development of his games to try and get things in them that were unique and interesting, but didn't necessarily fit Miyamoto's vision. (It's one of the reasons why Miyamoto would end up revising his statements on stories in games I think? The development of Galaxy 2 was an internal disaster, since it pushed Koizumi and Miyamoto to a breaking point.) Tanabe on the other hand takes every stray comment from Miyamoto as if it can't be challenged, and since he's one of Nintendo's third party development contacts, that stray comment is something that fans out over most games he's worked on since then.

The problem is less mandates and moreso the dangers of overvaluing seniority. Nintendo has been struggling with that one in particular for a while; BOTWs development had anonymous feedback specifically so that younger developers weren't getting their advice dismissed because a senior dev disagreed with them. (It's also a broader problem within Japanese companies on a whole; speaking out as a junior is seen as inappropriate.) Tanabe is simply a walking example of that seniority problem in action.

 

[Cheetah6442]

No? I just thought it was worth fact-checking. I don't really get why you'd see it as something fictional or a made up bogeyman, when the developers themselves have stated restrictions from the IP team are a fact.

And sorry for the bump, didn't realize how awkward it would be

Thankfully, this is past tense. I would also argue that considering that the Origami King was in development before the Switch era started, this guideline still applied, even though those mandates were mostly diminished by that point.

 

[Ripfeld89]

I would never say never, we will eventually reach new eras steered by new generations with different sensibilities and inspiration. I feel SPM was one of the strongest influences on the style and and tone of Undertale/Deltarune, and those have resonated with millions.

It is a highly remarkable game but quite flawed in my opinion. Turning PM into a full on action-RPG rather than some of the awkward half step away from RPG we got later is something I would readily accept, granted it's done well, but SPM kinda suffers by presenting itself as if it's a Mario platformer, but with none of the level of quality and polish one would expect from a Mario game. It's like they just barely tuned the Paper Mario movement into the bare minimum of what could accommodate platforming action. It's like some game design school student's experimental prototype made to demonstrate an innovative concept using what barely qualifies as a game engine.

I think we're well past the brand restrictions put on the Mario IP. I mean if you haven't been paying attention, we got a movie and like five games announced around the same time that bend the rules on how Mario and his world is presented to various degrees, I think sky's the limit. A remaster that fixes up the gameplay would be cool, but I'd be more interested in something brand new in a similar spirit that further redefines what the franchise can do.

 

[DiddyRescue]

Thankfully, this is past tense. I would also argue that considering that the Origami King was in development before the Switch era started, this guideline still applied, even though those mandates were mostly diminished by that point.

Yeah for sure! I'm hoping the remake of TTYD means we'll start seeing OCs and unique Toads again in the next Paper Mario going forward . It's just the comments claiming that these restrictions were "never ture", "fictional", or a "bogeyman" which is revisionist history.

The "Paper Mario mandate" technically can be blamed on Kensuke Tanabe; Miyamoto demo'ed Sticker Star during development and made a stray comment about "why not just use characters from the main series" (I think he specifically mentioned a cutoff point around Mario World?). Tanabe then took that advice as if it were a mandate, which is what mostly led to the homogenization of Paper Mario as a brand. It's the main reason why Sticker Star ended up as awful as it did; they had to last-minute rework the entire game from what I understand because of that stray comment.

In that way, Tanabe is pretty much the opposite from Koizumi, who actively sparred with Miyamoto during the development of his games to try and get things in them that were unique and interesting, but didn't necessarily fit Miyamoto's vision. (It's one of the reasons why Miyamoto would end up revising his statements on stories in games I think? The development of Galaxy 2 was an internal disaster, since it pushed Koizumi and Miyamoto to a breaking point.) Tanabe on the other hand takes every stray comment from Miyamoto as if it can't be challenged, and since he's one of Nintendo's third party development contacts, that stray comment is something that fans out over most games he's worked on since then.

The problem is less mandates and moreso the dangers of overvaluing seniority. Nintendo has been struggling with that one in particular for a while; BOTWs development had anonymous feedback specifically so that younger developers weren't getting their advice dismissed because a senior dev disagreed with them. (It's also a broader problem within Japanese companies on a whole; speaking out as a junior is seen as inappropriate.) Tanabe is simply a walking example of that seniority problem in action.

It is interesting that the other third-party Mario games got more lenient treatment, especially mainline first-party games like Odyssey and Wonder being so creative. Meanwhile Paper Mario's treatment was, according to Tanabe, "strict".

I haven't seen any sources suggesting it was Tanabe's own choice that "Since Paper Mario: Sticker Star, it’s no longer possible to modify Mario characters or to create original characters that touch on the Mario universe." and "From the production of Paper Mario: Sticker Star onwards, we were no longer able to graphically represent individual characteristics, such as age, gender etc., in the Toad NPCs". He states that it was the IP team who was the one requiring the restrictions. Do you know of a source that states otherwise?

I do agree with you though about seniority culture. That certainly plays a role.

 

[Razgriz]

He states that it was the IP team who was the one requiring the restrictions. Do you know of a source that states otherwise?

Not from Tanabe directly, but Mario vs. Rabbids actually had the director comment on the mandates in an interview with Metro.

GC: Did you have any trouble with Nintendo in creating new characters? Because I know there was that interview with the Paper Mario director who said he was no longer allowed to invent new characters based on existing enemies like Goombas and Shy Guys – they all had to remain generic.

DS: Ah…. [ponders for a moment] actually it depends on the team. It depends on us. Nintendo always told me: ask whatever you want, worst case scenario we are gonna say no.

Both: [laughs]

DS: So I asked tons of stuff and I received tons of ‘no’, but I also received some yes. So, no honestly on the characters…

GC: I don’t know if you saw the interview I mean?

DS: Actually, I understand but it was not a problem for us because we wanted to use Goomba and we have them, and we wanted to use Bob-omb, and we have them. We wanted to modify the Goomba a bit and they said yes.

Basically it's more a case of adding two and two together; we know that Sticker Star was forcibly redirected midway during development because of the Miyamoto comment (although the dev cycle for Sticker Star was a general mess; the goal was to get newer devs involved, but seniorism caused heavy creative bleed on the project) and we know that pretty much all games Tanabe has been involved with since then had this forced streamlining.

That combined with a third party developer who sidestepped the process that would normally get Tanabe involved (Ubisoft basically prepared a slide deck specifically to present to Miyamoto, who then personally got involved in developing the game since he was positively impressed with them) really shows that the IP team shouldn't be the showstopper for creativity that the recent Paper Mario games have been subjected to; it's pretty clearly Tanabe himself getting in the way on the ideas closer to TTYD-style characters.

Keep in mind that the IP team was fine adding Rabbids to a Mario game, and Rabbids aren't exactly the most high-brow IP out there.

 

[Irene]

I would’ve played the living hell out of this if it was a straight-up platformer only.

The 2D/3D mechanic is straight up fire.

 

[Phosphorescent Skeleton]

 

[Puruzi]

I love Super Paper Mario, it's the last of the good Paper Marios, not the start of the bad. For me Super is almost equal to TTYD and i actually like it more than 64

 

[VintoWin]

I would’ve played the living hell out of this if it was a straight-up platformer only.

The 2D/3D mechanic is straight up fire.

I mean it basically is a straight up platformer. The RPG stuff felt extremely negligible.

 

[Irene]

I mean it basically is a straight up platformer. The RPG stuff felt extremely negligible.

I meant, like, stripping all of it. All the battles and story elements and hub area, just blast level after level with cool 2D/3D stuff and we're talking.

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

This was actually my first Paper Mario game and I have fond memories of it. It's definitely a unique game, even to the series. I think TTYD is still my favorite, but I love all the games in the series (even Sticker Star and Color Splash), including SPM.

 

[Tye]

Not from Tanabe directly, but Mario vs. Rabbids actually had the director comment on the mandates in an interview with Metro.



Basically it's more a case of adding two and two together; we know that Sticker Star was forcibly redirected midway during development because of the Miyamoto comment (although the dev cycle for Sticker Star was a general mess; the goal was to get newer devs involved, but seniorism caused heavy creative bleed on the project) and we know that pretty much all games Tanabe has been involved with since then had this forced streamlining.

That combined with a third party developer who sidestepped the process that would normally get Tanabe involved (Ubisoft basically prepared a slide deck specifically to present to Miyamoto, who then personally got involved in developing the game since he was positively impressed with them) really shows that the IP team shouldn't be the showstopper for creativity that the recent Paper Mario games have been subjected to; it's pretty clearly Tanabe himself getting in the way on the ideas closer to TTYD-style characters.

Keep in mind that the IP team was fine adding Rabbids to a Mario game, and Rabbids aren't exactly the most high-brow IP out there.

Newer Paper Mario games and Mario + Rabbids aren’t really any different in this sense, though, because they both adhere to the same restrictions—any original characters exist outside of the normal Super Mario universe, and existing Mario characters aren’t significantly altered in physical appearance (such as Toads having hair when they shouldn’t, etc.). And given those restrictions, it’s honestly kind of easier for a crossover game like Mario + Rabbids to work around them than it is for a series that takes place within the existing Mario universe like Paper Mario, so I can understand why it might seem that the Paper Mario devs are struggling with those restrictions (though I’d disagree because I feel the newer Paper Mario games have been totally fine, especially The Origami King).

And personally I think those restrictions are totally fair to ask developers of non-main series Mario games to adhere to, and I don’t believe it’s anywhere near as creatively stifling as people like to believe, either.

 

[Razgriz]

existing Mario characters aren’t significantly altered in physical appearance (such as Toads having hair when they shouldn’t, etc.).

Thing is, the really memorable stuff from TTYD generally wasn't even like, that significantly altered. Koops is just a Koopa wearing a jacket; Bobbery is a brown Bob-Omb with a mustache and a sailor cap. The only one you could make the argument for is like, maybe Yoshi? But even then it's just a Yoshi wearing boxers and a funny hairstyle, I'm pretty sure SMRPGs Boshi is a more derivative design.

Toad ridicule is mostly because they replaced every single non-hostile NPC in the games (individual Toad design really doesn't matter that much outside of a few edgecases). That's a mandate that Tanabe seemingly hasn't let up on either; 64 and TTYD both had Koopa villages, while TTYD also had Piantas. Nobody actually minds the standardized Toads that much, it's that they homogenized all "good characters" into just being Toads. Even Origami King doesn't escape that particular problem; the only time you find a village in that game that isn't populated by Toads (instead it's populated by Snifits), it get replaced by being populated by Toads at the end of the chapter because "Mario enemies must always be the evil faction".

That's usually what grinds people's gears about the recent Paper Marios; it pushes the idea that only Toads can be the "good" NPCs really hard into your face, while honestly... Toads are probably the least interesting Mario NPCs in terms of gags, goofs and interesting characterization. You'd get the same problem if you just made the entire cast Goombas or Koopas; variety in locales is what makes an RPG interesting and Paper Mario went in a direction where all the NPCs populating said locales were pretty much the same NPC. Which sucks because there's plenty of small enemies you can use to populate a Mario setting without needing much originality... heck that's what 64 is (penguins, goombas, koopas, boos, all of them populate 64s world and not all of them are hostile).