Discussion Do you think that Nintendo's partners and subsidiaries have management issues?

[Ricimer]

Those weren't drought years. Especially not compared to the Wii U era. And there was something else kinda big that happened in 2020 that explains the entirety of that year from March onward.

2018, 2020, and 2024 are/were as bad as any Wii U year regarding firsty party games. Trust me, as Wii U buyer from day 1 I know.

 

[Hailinel]

Developing for HD systems does not inherently mean development time increases too. You can make smaller projects with smaller development times. Nintendo just aren't making smaller games as much anymore since the 3DS died, which is a shame. Handheld franchises like 2D Zelda, Mario & Luigi, Rhythm Heaven, etc. falling by the wayside is sad.

They remade a 2D Zelda this gen, the studio behind Mario & Luigi closed, in part because they couldn't adapt to HD dev, and Rhythm Heaven stopped getting made in part because the lead creative behind it had to put life on hold for medical treatment.

 

[Cheetah6442]

2018, 2020, and 2024 are/were as bad as any Wii U year regarding firsty party games. Trust me, as Wii U buyer from day 1 I know.

In that context? Maybe. In general tho. No, definitely don't agree.

 

[SirArthur]

Let's see

1. Internal teams are making less games than ever before, console/handheld hardware consolidation done specifically to prevent droughts has been an utter failure.
2. Same engine sequels like TOTK are taking 6 years to create when the whole point of sequels like it are faster turn around with the reuse.
3. 3D Mario team hasn't put out a major game for 7+ years now. Even in the best case scenario and they have a new game coming this year, 7 years between titles is crazy!
4. Gamefreak. Nuff said.
5. Mario Sports games are in the dumpster because of likely of bad managerial decisions regarding DLC.
6. Camelot being stuck in sport games hell for over 15 years
7. Allowing NST to be stuck in Mario Vs DK hell until just last year. They should have been nerfed up and more directly managed after the Project HAMMER mess, Nintendo has room to expand with Western developers
8. Letting studios like Alpha Dream and Skip Ltd die after greenlighting bad projects (Ziplash, too late 3DS remakes of M&L games)
9. Implementing the Mario IP mandate and tripling down on the new Paper Mario formula in the face of explicit and overt criticism
10. Prime 4 was completely mismanaged to the point of rebooting the entire project.
11. Retro Studios going 10 years between new releases, post TF game getting mismanaged and cancelled as a result. Also somehow taking 5+ years to make a Metroid Prime 4 with zero to show for it.

I would say so in my opinion!

Lets clarify all these points.

- HD games require more resources for one (this basically covers most of them).

• "Engine" is a short hand for tools devs use, they are a framework from which devs build tools for their needs. TOTK and BOTW use different tools. There is a fantastic picture in the First Party thread.
• Alphadream wanted to make Inside Story on 3DS because they thought it would make them money. And "let them die", acquiring a company that has debt is not as easy as it seems.
• Prime was given to a new studio, to simplify, that worked was worked in chunks, it was not comping together in a way Nintendo wanted so it was scrapped. If you knew how many prototypes/projects are scrapped by devs, then every studio is "mismanaged". Games are a different environment.

2018, 2020, 2024, have all had pretty bad first party software droughts.

Games can take longer to make in general but you can also greenlight smaller, handheld style projects with purposefully smaller scopes and smaller development times. They have done this to some extent with titles like Endless Ocean, but not nearly enough.

Considering how they merged they teams, 2018 was the casualty and even then they released games. 2020 was the Covid year, even if games are done, they require QA, localization, among other factors that given how Japan handled the situation slowed things down.

2024 they literally have 3 titles from their handheld era:

• AC was a DS game
• MvDK was a handheld game
• LM2 has a 3ds game

 

[Truno]

My thoughts:

Internal teams are making less games than ever before, console/handheld hardware consolidation done specifically to prevent droughts has been an utter failure.

Natural evolution of ballooning budgets and advancements in technology.

1. Same engine sequels like TOTK are taking 6 years to create when the whole point of sequels like it are faster turn around with the reuse.

Although I agree it took a lot of time, this severely undercuts the scope and polish of the game plus the impact of COVID.

3D Mario team hasn't put out a major game for 7+ years now. Even in the best case scenario and they have a new game coming this year, 7 years between titles is crazy!

Completely neglects the reason that they might be holding the game back for another console.

Gamefreak. Nuff said.

True, they've struggled with HD development.

Mario Sports games are in the dumpster because of likely of bad managerial decisions regarding DLC.

True, but this has been the case since the late Wii days. The scope that Nintendo has in mind for these games is unfortunate. They're just filler releases

Camelot being stuck in sport games hell for over 15 years

They're a team of roughly 30 people, the games probably give them enough profit to stay afloat.

Allowing NST to be stuck in Mario Vs DK hell until just last year. They should have been nerfed up and more directly managed after the Project HAMMER mess, Nintendo has room to expand with Western developers

They worked on F-Zero 99 and Bowser's Fury

Letting studios like Alpha Dream and Skip Ltd die after greenlighting bad projects (Ziplash, too late 3DS remakes of M&L games)

No comment on this, not familiar enough.

Implementing the Mario IP mandate and tripling down on the new Paper Mario formula in the face of explicit and overt criticism

True, this has been an ongoing issue since 2007/08

Prime 4 was completely mismanaged to the point of rebooting the entire project.

Agreed. No idea why they didn't go with Retro initially.

Retro Studios going 10 years between new releases, post TF game getting mismanaged and cancelled as a result. Also somehow taking 5+ years to make a Metroid Prime 4 with zero to show for it.

Absolutely bizzare, I agree.

 

[OctoSplattack]

Nintendo doesn't need to make two consoles worth of games when they just have the one console to support and HD development requires more resources. They've published over 80 titles for the Switch so far, not counting digital-only titles and stuff that was only regionally published by them. They're fine in terms of output.

 

[Hailinel]

2020 was even worse than this year. Understandably with COVID, but even then that year was going to be weaker no matter what. 2018 was also really bad if you remove all the Wii U ports.

Downplaying the effects of the pandemic like that is maybe not the best idea. We don't know what 2020 would have looked like for Nintendo under normal circumstances.

 

[Polmo]

Let's see

1. Internal teams are making less games than ever before, console/handheld hardware consolidation done specifically to prevent droughts has been an utter failure.
2. Same engine sequels like TOTK are taking 6 years to create when the whole point of sequels like it are faster turn around with the reuse.
3. 3D Mario team hasn't put out a major game for 7+ years now. Even in the best case scenario and they have a new game coming this year, 7 years between titles is crazy!
4. Gamefreak. Nuff said.
5. Mario Sports games are in the dumpster because of likely of bad managerial decisions regarding DLC.
6. Camelot being stuck in sport games hell for over 15 years
7. Allowing NST to be stuck in Mario Vs DK hell until just last year. They should have been nerfed up and more directly managed after the Project HAMMER mess, Nintendo has room to expand with Western developers
8. Letting studios like Alpha Dream and Skip Ltd die after greenlighting bad projects (Ziplash, too late 3DS remakes of M&L games)
9. Implementing the Mario IP mandate and tripling down on the new Paper Mario formula in the face of explicit and overt criticism
10. Prime 4 was completely mismanaged to the point of rebooting the entire project.
11. Retro Studios going 10 years between new releases, post TF game getting mismanaged and cancelled as a result. Also somehow taking 5+ years to make a Metroid Prime 4 with zero to show for it.

I would say so in my opinion!

1. Nintendo realese pretty much a game every months, it's one of the most prolific producer and had many smaller titles alongside bigger budget projects, look at 2023 with WarioWare Mario RPG alongside mid size project like Bayonetta Origins, Mario Wonder and Engage and bigger like Zelda TotK and Pikmin 4.
2. TotK run on a different engine than Totk, one year of delay because covid and one year spent to just polish one of the most complex physics system of the industries
3. Yeah, the fact that the 3D Mario Team didn't release a new game is a bit strange, but I think we have to wait a bit more to see what they are cooking. Like maybe we could get two projects in a span of a year.
4. GF is an independent dev and TPC is the one who manage the Brand.
5. Mario Sports game ls where never that good, we only like it because we were kids at the time.
6. Camelot is an independent studio and they could work on other projects if they wants to
7. NST management is not a Switch era thing, it come from the iwata heritage and only with Switch they started making new titles and Bowser Fury was made thanks to their contributions.
8. Alpha Dream was a really small studio, with bad managements and the hinability to work on HD games, they didn't even had a 3D artist. Some of the employees where merged to the company. Skip is not a worth it developer. How about next level game and SRD acquisition? What about Nintendo Studio and Nintendo system?
9. The Mario mandate was a Wii/WiiU thing not on Switch..
10. That could happen with every company
11. Retrostudio mismanagement was mainly during the wii u era, with the Switch they completely revamped the team, for Metroid Prime they are taking the normal time for a AAA games with even covid, the fact we haven't see it yet is mostly because they had to showcase other metroid games before that and the likely cross-gen nature of the project.

That post is mostly misinformation from a distorted perspective.

 

[Ricimer]

Downplaying the effects of the pandemic like that is maybe not the best idea. We don't know what 2020 would have looked like for Nintendo under normal circumstances.

I say that considering they unloaded a lot of their games on 2019. 2020 was going to be a naturally weaker year as a result of the natural ebb and flow. Also because their consolidation of hardware lines to prevent droughts has been a failure. Both are factors.

 

[Ricimer]

1. Nintendo realese pretty much a game every months, it's one of the most prolific producer and had many smaller titles alongside bigger budget projects, look at 2023 with WarioWare Mario RPG alongside mid size project like Bayonetta Origins, Mario Wonder and Engage and bigger like Zelda TotK and Pikmin 4.
2. TotK run on a different engine than Totk, one year of delay because covid and one year spent to just polish one of the most complex physics system of the industries
3. Yeah, the fact that the 3D Mario Team didn't release a new game is a bit strange, but I think we have to wait a bit more to see what they are cooking. Like maybe we could get two projects in a span of a year.
4. GF is an independent dev and TPC is the one who manage the Brand.
5. Mario Sports game ls where never that good, we only like it because we were kids at the time.
6. Camelot is an independent studio and they could work on other projects if they wants to
7. NST management is not a Switch era thing, it come from the iwata heritage and only with Switch they started making new titles and Bowser Fury was made thanks to their contributions.
8. Alpha Dream was a really small studio, with bad managements and the hinability to work on HD games, they didn't even had a 3D artist. Some of the employees where merged to the company. Skip is not a worth it developer. How about next level game and SRD acquisition? What about Nintendo Studio and Nintendo system?
9. The Mario mandate was a Wii/WiiU thing not on Switch..
10. That could happen with every company
11. Retrostudio mismanagement was mainly during the wii u era, with the Switch they completely revamped the team, for Metroid Prime they are taking the normal time for a AAA games with even covid, the fact we haven't see it yet is mostly because they had to showcase other metroid games before that and the likely cross-gen nature of the project.

That post is mostly misinformation from a distorted perspective.

Misinformation isn't just opinions you disagree with.

 

[EvilChameleon]

Oh no, another thread where we argue drought semantics.

 

[Hailinel]

I say that considering they unloaded a lot of their games on 2019. 2020 was going to be a naturally weaker year as a result of the natural ebb and flow. Also because their consolidation of hardware lines to prevent droughts has been a failure. Both are factors.

You are seeing mirages. Again, we don't know what 2020 was supposed to be. You can't judge a theoretical 2020 based on 2019's output.

And in response to an earlier comment, I am fully aware of what the Wii U era was like. I was a day one owner and kept it hooked up until the Switch released. I have seen software droughts, and the Wii U became a desert. The Switch era holds no comparison to it outside of hyperbole.

 

[Polmo]

Also, people did remember that during the past gens, most titles suffered from the same template or rushed status for their main projects because they had to recycle idea to make games more quickly?
Look at NSMB series or 3D Land -> 3D World, even Mario Kart 8 at launch was a bit rushed and the basic structure was taken from 7.

 

[OctoSplattack]

"Drought discourse" is going on the list next to "Paper Mario discourse." I hate it.

 

[Ricimer]

"Drought discourse" is going on the list next to "Paper Mario discourse." I hate it.

You hate the truth brother

 

[Cheetah6442]

You hate the truth brother

This is an opinion that you are entitled to, not the truth.

 

[PixelKnight]

Developing for HD systems does not inherently mean development time increases too. You can make smaller projects with smaller development times. Nintendo just aren't making smaller games as much anymore since the 3DS died, which is a shame. Handheld franchises like 2D Zelda, Mario & Luigi, Rhythm Heaven, etc. falling by the wayside is sad.

On the other hand, they brought back Another Code and Advance Wars, and remade the most iconic handheld Zelda, all pretty much handheld games remade from the ground up for a modern platform. On top of 2D Metroid, Warioware and Mario vs DK. Fire Emblem Engage feels a lot closer to the 3DS FEs than TH does. Those are all exactly what would have been 3DS games in the past, it’s not so much that ‘handheld franchises have fallen by the wayside’, it’s that they just need a higher level of visual polish on a HD system that some people are going to be playing on a massive TV.

Not only that but there are literally thousands of ‘smaller games’ from third parties on Switch and more every week, a lot of them the kind of games you’d get on previous portables, from experimental adventures to metroidvanias to tight 2D platformers to RPGs. That part of the market is extremely competitive and extremely well served with good games, but even then indie studios now need years to make even these tight 2D games rather than the months it would have taken 20 years ago.

 

[Ricimer]

On the other hand, they brought back Another Code and Advance Wars, and remade the most iconic handheld Zelda, all pretty much handheld games remade from the ground up for a modern platform. On top of 2D Metroid, Warioware and Mario vs DK. Fire Emblem Engage feels a lot closer to the 3DS FEs than TH does. Those are all exactly what would have been 3DS games in the past, it’s not so much that ‘handheld franchises have fallen by the wayside’, it’s that they just need a higher level of visual polish on a HD system that some people are going to be playing on a massive TV.

Not only that but there are literally thousands of ‘smaller games’ from third parties on Switch and more every week, a lot of them the kind of games you’d get on previous portables, from experimental adventures to metroidvanias to tight 2D platformers to RPGs. That part of the market is extremely competitive and extremely well served with good games, but even then indie studios now need years to make even these tight 2D games rather than the months it would have taken 20 years ago.

It's been 5 years since the last 2D Zelda (a tile for tile, word for word remake mind you) came out...

 

[Ricimer]

You are seeing mirages. Again, we don't know what 2020 was supposed to be. You can't judge a theoretical 2020 based on 2019's output.

And in response to an earlier comment, I am fully aware of what the Wii U era was like. I was a day one owner and kept it hooked up until the Switch released. I have seen software droughts, and the Wii U became a desert. The Switch era holds no comparison to it outside of hyperbole.

Okay well I can judge similarly bad years like 2018 and 2024, and also weaker years like 2021 and 2022, and come to the conclusion that the handheld and console consolidation has been a total failure.

Years like 2018, 2020, and 2024 are definitely comparable to the bad Wii U years like 2013 and 2016.

 

[Hailinel]

It's been 5 years since the last 2D Zelda (a tile for tile, word for word remake mind you) came out...

Nintendo is not obligated to meet your personal schedule.

Okay well I can judge similarly bad years like 2018 and 2024, and also weaker years like 2921 and 2022, and come to the conclusion that the handheld and console consolidation has been a total failure.

Years like 2018, 2020, and 2024 are definitely comparable to the bad Wii U years like 2013 and 2016.

How are any of these years "weak"? What made them weak? They're not weak just because you say they are without elaborating. You're not stating definitive facts, and your only evidence is vibes.

 

[Ricimer]

Nintendo is not obligated to meet your personal schedule.


How are any of these years "weak"? What made them weak? They're not weak just because you say they are without elaborating. You're not stating definitive facts, and your only evidence is vibes.

No but it's more evidence to the fact their consolidation to prevent software droughts has been a failure. Nintendo has been unable to make a new 2D Zelda in over a decade, something that was traditionally a consistent and easier to make part of their handheld software strategy. Smaller handheld games like this have been cast to the wayside in favor of bloated development schedules like TOTK's

If you want to go list wars I can show you the raw first party output from each year when I get home... You can look yourself too

 

[BotenAnna]

Y'all it is Sunday get a snack and play some video games.

 

[PixelKnight]

No but it's more evidence to the fact their consolidation to prevent software droughts has been a failure. Nintendo has been unable to make a new 2D Zelda in over a decade,, something that was traditionally s consistent and easier to make part of their handheld software strategy. Smaller games like this have been cast to the wayside in favor of bloated development schedules like TOTK's

If you want to go list wars I can show you the raw first part output from each year when I get home...

I don’t think the lack of a 2D Zelda since LA means ‘failure to prevent software drought’ unless your definition of a non-drought is incredibly specific. There’s literally stacks of Zelda games on Switch, including two absolutely massive, critically acclaimed ones. Try Cadence of Hyrule for a 2D Zelda leaning into its musical side.

 

[Ricimer]

I don’t think the lack of a 2D Zelda since LA means ‘failure to prevent software drought’ unless your definition of a non-drought is incredibly specific. There’s literally stacks of Zelda games on Switch, including two absolutely massive, critically acclaimed ones. Try Cadence of Hyrule for a 2D Zelda leaning into its musical side.

No you're ignoring my overall point. Letting small 2D Zelda rot is evidence to the fact they've largely cast their smaller dev time handheld franchises to the wayside

 

[PixelKnight]

No you're ignoring my overall point. Letting small 2D Zelda for is evidence to the fact they've largely cast their handheld franchises to the wayside

Apart from getting Wayforward to remake Advance Wars, a new 2D Metroid from Mercury Steam, Cadence of Hyrule from the Necrodancer devs, Link’s Awakening, Another Code, WarioWare, Mario vs DK, Animal Crossing, 2D Mario, FE Engage, Tetris 99 etc etc. ‘Largely cast aside’ feels like a bit of a stretch to me, and I’ve mostly used portables over the years.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

"Sequels aren't just what fans request, and sometimes end up less well received" doesn't seem like a big issue to me. They gamble, it doesn't always pay off. But based on Nintendo's continued software success, it seems to pay off more than not.

 

[metwars]

Apart from getting Wayforward to remake Advance Wars, a new 2D Metroid from Mercury Steam, Cadence of Hyrule from the Necrodancer devs, Link’s Awakening, Another Code, WarioWare, Mario vs DK, Animal Crossing, 2D Mario, FE Engage, Tetris 99 etc etc. ‘Largely cast aside’ feels like a bit of a stretch to me, and I’ve mostly used portables over the years.

also add in the fact that the developer of Links awakening, also did the rerelease of miitopia in 2021 and ahve recently being doing their own game with Jet Dragon. Like there have been a lot of resurrection of smaller franchises on the switch, along with the chance to try out newer things like with arms, princess peach, and bayonetta Origins, and hell even F-zero 99. Do I wish there were a couple more smaller release titles...sure, but when coming into HD Development for every studio, things are naturally going to take longer.

 

[SpaceGodzilla]

feels like one of those threads where the OP was expecting a lot of people to agree with their hot take only for the opposite to happen and then they only interact with the people who agree with them

 

[Truno]

feels like one of those threads where the OP was expecting a lot of people to agree with their hot take only for the opposite to happen and then they only interact with the people who agree with them

I absolutely believed that my OP would be agreed upon in Famiboards.com, yes.

If that's what I was looking for I would've posted it in the old place, so I could hear a bunch of takes about how Nintendo doesn't have enough big budget titles or how their Switches are collecting dust

 

[MonHunterORB]

TOTK reviewed worse than BOTW and failed to sweep awards the same way BOTW, and then there is the lack of legs.

So it is not just the partners i'm afraid.

I'm sorry but this is an asinine statement.

97meta and 96 opencritic vs 96 meta and 96 opencritic

The difference in reviews between them is so tiny as to be essentially non existent. Its tiny statistical noise from Metacritics black box process. It didn't sweep awards as hard because competition was steeper and its a direct sequel.

Nintendo spent 6 years on the game and a whole year of that was them polishing the game despite it being in a releasable state.

Out of every Switch game you pick the single most technically ambitious and large scope game that had the most time taken to develop and has the second highest review scores to use as an example of a QA problem?

 

[EAD Ninja]

It's a very common practice for developers who're working on new games to take into consideration feedback from fans and critics alike of previous works in order to deliver the best experience possible. However, it seems that most of Nintendo’s partners and subsidiaries avoid this.

Take Next Level Games, for example. They launched Luigi's Mansion 3, a game that was universally lauded. It was met with incredible success which was assuredly one of the factors that led to them being acquired by Nintendo. Despite this success, they went on to develop Mario Strikers Battle League, a game that was met with mixed to negative reception, earning it the worst score in the Strikers series and the worst score for a Mario Sports title on Nintendo Switch. It was seen as a big step pack from Charged and the original title.

Furthermore, look at Intelligent Systems. They launched Fire Emblem Three Houses, one of the highest rated and the best selling Fire Emblem game. Despite this, they shifted from the design aspects of Three Houses that were lauded in order to produce Fire Emblem Engage. Engage was met with mixed response which led to it selling considerably less than 3H. The same could be said for the reception from Wario Ware Move It and Get It Together! when compared to Gold.

There are more examples to this. Pokemon Scarlet and Violet (the worst rated mainline Pokemon generation by critics and user scores), Bayonetta 3 (lowest mainline Bayonetta game and the most divisive entry amongst fans), Mario Gold Super Rush (seen as a step down from World Tour), Endless Ocean Luminous being panned by critics, etc. There's other cases such as Super Mario Party and The Origami King which, although improved on their predecessors, the reception to the quality of these titles remains mixed. And then there are other cases such as Retro Studios where they haven't been able to produce a new original title in over a decade.

There are outliers to this, such as HAL or Monolith Soft, but the issue persists with most of Nintendo affiliates.

When a brand new Nintendo game is being released by EPD Tokyo or the Zelda team, there’s usually a sense of comfort as there is no doubt that they’ll be able to deliver an enjoyable title. However, for the aforementioned studios, the quality of their products are too inconsistent for them to receive the benefit of the doubt.

What do you think?

1. I argue that that any game that is sourced mainly from EPD's internal groups, seems to garnish a sense of higher quality and/or higher notoriety and sales than those co-developed by satellite or external studios.

2. Following that paradigm, EPD derived games are often going to have a premier development budget and premier marketing budget.

3. Not sure what the IS reference is as it's from the same EPD production group, but realistically two different developers, releasing two different games at distinct junctures in the life of the Nintendo Swift,

4. Did Nintendo deliver on their promise of more internal first-party game due to consolidation? I would argue no. Obviously they consolidated game platforms intro a hybrid model, but they still developed some extensively staffed mobile projects. Continuing on that model, even regular console games required more resources than ever, So if we are comparing 3DS/WIiU internal development and 3DS/WiiU production/published titles compared between Switch - they seem about even to to me. So the answer would be NO - they didn't.

 

[Brock Reiher]

I think a lot of those studios are on the upswing. Pokémon I think is in a much better place than it was 5 years ago.

 

[grobla123]

I think even accounting for Covid, switch release cadence has been slower than I would have like given handheld games are gone now. On the other hand, imagine how much worse it would be with a split dev resources. Its not like Nintendo was able to support 3ds and Wii U at the same time very well and even the Ds and Wii had some gaps.

Its also notable most your examples of devs released a great game and then released a merely good enough one. How ever will we manage.

 

[Ricimer]

I absolutely believed that my OP would be agreed upon in Famiboards.com, yes.

If that's what I was looking for I would've posted it in the old place, so I could hear a bunch of takes about how Nintendo doesn't have enough big budget titles or how their Switches are collecting dust

You would probably get more neutral/less fanboyish opinions if posted on the old place...

 

[PixelKnight]

You would probably get more neutral/less fanboyish opinions if posted on the old place...

Just because people disagree with you doesn’t make the whole community fanboys. Maybe your argument just isn’t that strong.

 

[entut1]

Origami King got an 80 MC on the dot and is the second-best selling game in the series. I wouldn't call that mixed reception.

Also, while it is true Nintendo doesn't often look on fan feedback for how to steer the direction of a series, they often figure out and fix the issues themselves, lol.

 

[Thunder84]

Downplaying the effects of the pandemic like that is maybe not the best idea. We don't know what 2020 would have looked like for Nintendo under normal circumstances.

While I don’t really agree with the point the other user is arguing, I do think we can paint a fairly realistic picture as to what 2020 was intended to look like, given that there were serious questions about the release lineup well before COVID ever was on the radar. The first eight months of 2021 were relatively quiet, and the big games of 2022 that were rumored to have been delayed by COVID were supposedly slated for 2021 at first glance.

We technically don’t know what their full plans were, but I feel fairly confident that 2020 was intended to be a quieter year from the get-go, with 2021 being the “rebound” year, just like the 2018-2019 schedule.

 

[Thunder84]

No you're ignoring my overall point. Letting small 2D Zelda rot is evidence to the fact they've largely cast their smaller dev time handheld franchises to the wayside

TIL not releasing a new game in 5 years (with a pandemic happening in between) is the benchmark for “letting something rot”.

They haven’t released a new 3D Mario in nearly 7 years, is that rotting too? What about Smash? Mario Maker? Yoshi? Hell, it took 6 years to release a new 3D Zelda, was that rotting too?

 

[Lugia667]

TOTK reviewed worse than BOTW and failed to sweep awards the same way BOTW, and then there is the lack of legs.

So it is not just the partners i'm afraid.

.......yeah concern trolling

 

[Hocot8]

why bring this nonsensical and ridiculous drought discourse to another thread?

TOTK reviewed worse than BOTW and failed to sweep awards the same way BOTW, and then there is the lack of legs.

So it is not just the partners i'm afraid.

you forgot the /s

 

[xghost777]

We keep getting asked to look it up in regards to what a drought looks like. Here’s one that I always remember, the stretch from Donkey Kong Country Returns to Kirby’s Return to Dream Land.

Donkey Kong released in America on November 21 2010 and Kirby’s Return to Dreamland October 24 2011. The games in between them were:

Mario Sports Mix February 7th
Wii Play Motion June 13th
Mystery Case Files The Malgrave Incident June 27th

That’s apparently it according to Wikipedia!

List of Nintendo products - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

If you were a Wii only fan, in those long 11 months that was Nintendo until you got to the awesome holiday with Kirby, Zelda, and Fortune Street. I remember we got Final Fantasy VI on Virtual Console during that Summer which was the only drip in the desert.

 

[Ricimer]

TIL not releasing a new game in 5 years (with a pandemic happening in between) is the benchmark for “letting something rot”.

They haven’t released a new 3D Mario in nearly 7 years, is that rotting too? What about Smash? Mario Maker? Yoshi? Hell, it took 6 years to release a new 3D Zelda, was that rotting too?

2D Zelda is definitely neglected. It's been 11 years since the last mainline entry, 9 years since the last original game. No signs of a new game on the horizon.

Going to remake fodder from a series that formerly saw multiple original titles every generation is definitely a huge downgrade.

 

[Wockio]

2D Zelda is definitely neglected. It's been 11 years since the last mainline entry, 9 years since the last original game. No signs of a new game on the horizon.

Going to remake fodder from a series that formerly saw multiple original titles every generation is definitely a huge downgrade.

2D Zelda has been in a weird position long before Switch. Don't forget ALBW was originally intended to be a ALTTP remake.

After the success of NSMB and now Wonder, I think Nintendo is likely interested in a big time 2D Zelda revival that takes aspects from open world Zelda while also being its own thing. I feel like it's likely the current Zelda project in development, with 3D Zelda not having left early planning stages yet.

 

[Seven]

No you're ignoring my overall point. Letting small 2D Zelda rot is evidence to the fact they've largely cast their smaller dev time handheld franchises to the wayside

No, its just evidence that Nintendo doesn't have to develop multiple games in a single franchise for two separate systems. Not to mention most 2D Zeldas on Nintendo handhelds were either developed by third party partners (The Oracle titles, The Minish Cap), or as far from "traditional" as you can get (The DS duology, Triforce Heroes).

 

[Polmo]

Also, can we agree that DLC like Xeno Torna, Future Redeemed, Splatoon Octo Expansion, Side Orded, AC Happy Home Paradise are like the "portable spinoff" of the franchise?
What I mean is that they are smaller scale adventure that if they were on 3DS, they would be a standalone titles.

 

[Ricimer]

2D Zelda has been in a weird position long before Switch. Don't forget ALBW was originally intended to be a ALTTP remake.

After the success of NSMB and now Wonder, I think Nintendo is likely interested in a big time 2D Zelda revival that takes aspects from open world Zelda while also being its own thing. I feel like it's likely the current Zelda project in development, with 3D Zelda not having left early planning stages yet.

I hope so!

No, its just evidence that Nintendo doesn't have to develop multiple games in a single franchise for two separate systems. Not to mention most 2D Zeldas on Nintendo handhelds were either developed by third party partners (The Oracle titles, The Minish Cap), or as far from "traditional" as you can get (The DS duology, Triforce Heroes).

Nintendo has no problems supporting 2D and 3D sub franchises as evidenced by Mario and Metroid. That shouldn't be different for Zelda. I think they've just become so infatuated with the open air formula they've put too many resources towards those games and they left everything else by the wayside.

The DS duology is pretty traditional 2D Zelda, don't know your point.

 

[PixelKnight]

I hope so!

Nintendo has no problems supporting 2D and 3D sub franchises as evidenced by Mario and Metroid. That shouldn't be different for Zelda. I think they've just become so infatuated with the open air formula they've put too many resources towards those games and they left everything else by the wayside.

The DS duology is pretty traditional 2D Zelda, don't know your point.

We didn’t get a 2D Metroid for 15 years between Fusion and Samus Returns. Not all series need to have games in all their sub-series every few years to prove they haven’t been abandoned, that’s just unrealistic at this point. Nintendo has tons of IP, they can’t all have multiple games constantly in development, and it’s not like the Zelda IP as a whole is unrepresented on the Switch.

 

[Ricimer]

We didn’t get a 2D Metroid for 15 years between Fusion and Samus Returns. Not all series need to have games in all their sub-series every few years to prove they haven’t been abandoned, that’s just unrealistic at this point. Nintendo has tons of IP, they can’t all have multiple games constantly in development, and it’s not like Zelda IP as a whole is unrepresented on the Switch.

Since the Switch era Nintendo has been able to provide support to both 2D and 3D Mario and Metroid sub franchises. It's about managing development resources properly and what's a priority for them. Most smaller, previously handheld-centric, franchises haven't been a priority for them since the Switch era began, 2D Metroid has been a bright exception.

2D Zelda being buttressed for huge console Zelda games with protracted dev times is definitely disappointing, and unnecessary. Okay so the main Zelda team is way too busy with huge console Zelda games now, perfect time to outsource with partner studios! And they did. And we could have gotten a new 2D Zelda in 2019/2020 if they didn't greenlight a remake. Those same dev resources could have got to making something original instead of near identical remake with just new graphics. That's part of the mismanagement this thread is talking about. Even while LA HD was a sales success a remake over an original title is still a huge disappointment as a fan, an unnecessary one when an original 2D Zelda would have sold just as well if not better if put in that same position.

 

[PixelKnight]

Since the Switch era Nintendo has been able to provide support to both 2D and 3D Mario and Metroid sub franchises. It's about managing development resources properly and what's a priority for them. Most smaller, previously handheld-centric, franchises haven't been a priority for them since the Switch era began, 2D Metroid has been a bright exception.

It’s not an exception. As I said above-

Apart from getting Wayforward to remake Advance Wars, a new 2D Metroid from Mercury Steam, Cadence of Hyrule from the Necrodancer devs, Link’s Awakening, Another Code, WarioWare, Mario vs DK, Animal Crossing, 2D Mario, FE Engage, Tetris 99 etc etc.

.
You’re just extrapolating from one thing you particularly want.

2D Zelda being buttressed for huge console Zelda games with protracted dev times is definitely disappointing, and unnecessary. We could have gotten a new 2D Zelda in 2019/2020 if they didn't greenlight a remake of Links Awakening. Those same dev resources could have got to making something original instead of near identical remake with just new graphics. That's the mismanagement this thread is talking about.

We got Cadence of Hyrule in 2019, an original 2D game. And I don’t think a remake of the most iconic portable Zelda game is exactly proof of ‘mismanagement’ of 2D Zelda either.

At this point it just seems like you consider it a ‘drought’ and ‘mismanagement’ if you haven’t had a specific game in the specific sub series you want in the last 5 years. We didn’t get Metroid in 15, or Advance Wars in 20. Both of those re-emerged on 3DS and Switch respectively.

 

[Ricimer]

It’s not an exception. As I said above-
.
You’re just extrapolating from one thing you particularly want.


We got Cadence of Hyrule in 2019, an original 2D game. And I don’t think a remake of the most iconic portable Zelda game is exactly proof of ‘mismanagement’ of 2D Zelda.

I never said they haven't greenlit smaller games this generation, as you listed they have and with some previouly handheld centric franchises (I wouldn't count 2D Mario, Fire Emblem, and Animal Crossing as examples of such franchises though, but semantics).

The greater point was their consolidation of the handheld and console hardware was done specifically to prevent game droughts. And it's been a failure considering the Switch's output is on par with previous solo systems, droughts and all. It doesn't match the pure number of games from the combined forces of the GBA+NGC, DS+Wii, 3DS+Wii U eras.

Some of that is due to HD development taking longer. A larger part is handheld franchises and smaller games haven't been prioritized as much as their console counterparts with larger scopes and different design philosophies. And that's disappointing.