Discussion What was the original source of the 2D Donkey Kong rumor?
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ItWasMeantToBe19
Bob-omb
Because Mario and Zelda are 97 Metacritic, 25m selling games that are massive system sellers and Mario Kart and Animal Crossing just sold 50m units.
These are the four overwhelmingly important Nintendo IPs and all other EPD resources have to be fit around them.
With that in mind, with EPD clearly working on many other games currently other than just those four, where Donkey Kong is getting the resources becomes a massive question.
This rumor would just be way more plausible if
1. People didn't bring up the obviously false VV stuff
2. People just said it was a 2D game that EPD Tokyo had been hiring for
3. Or people said it was being made by NST as Nintendo now trusts them to make games again after Bowser's Fury.
4. Or people said it was a very small scale 3D project within EPD
Instead, this wildly implausible "BotW Donkey Kong made by EPD Tokyo who now are making three games at once despite not having released a game in six years and they took this game over from VV who was somehow allowed to make this for a minute by Activision" rumor is what is brought up.
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Nathan Little
Koopa
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Tbf, Zelda just reached those numbers. Before BotW, it sold just as much as DKC did. A hypothetical 3D DK could, at the very least, reach 10 million+ given recent trends.
Chill_Phil
Rattata
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Thank you AndresRestart!
ItWasMeantToBe19
Bob-omb
That was 25 years ago!
Regardless of the sales potential of Donkey Kong (and this is extremely hard to judge without knowing the scope and type of hypothetical game), Nintendo EPD pretty clearly has four massive IPs it needs to support as much as possible and has several other games it's making as well. This makes a massively ambitious Donkey Kong game far more difficult to slot in.
Codacious
Elfilin
This just feels very rigid/limiting to me. It's basically saying that there can only ever be 4 franchises that get the most attention/resources. I don't think Nintendo's goal is to elevate four franchises as more "important" than all the others.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Bob-omb
That won't always be the case, but it's pretty obviously going to be the case right now as Nintendo will need all of those other than 3D Zelda to be released as soon as possible and to be as high-quality as possible to make the Switch 2 a success.
I am just extremely skeptical that Nintendo would take away resources from 3D Mario, Mario Kart, or Animal Crossing for any IP, let alone a massive budget reboot of Donkey Kong.
Nathan Little
Koopa
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What was 25 years ago? I'm talking about the average sales of both franchises.
sanstea
Bob-omb
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If you think they are building a theme park around the Donkey Kong franchise only to treat it like a second-tier game franchise you can't be helped. Obviously they want Donkey Kong to be a big gaming franchise with that and EPD Tokyo doing their magic on the franchise is a sure-fire way to make that happen.
As for these rumours, it is all so wishy-washy that I have trouble even making real sense of it. Why do all these people have sources on EPD working on Donkey Kong but don't know anything else about Nintendo's and EPD's software line-up? Doesn't really add up to me.
I just want Tokyo to finally announce their game, it's been almost 6 years. It has to be soon.
As for these rumours, it is all so wishy-washy that I have trouble even making real sense of it. Why do all these people have sources on EPD working on Donkey Kong but don't know anything else about Nintendo's and EPD's software line-up? Doesn't really add up to me.
I just want Tokyo to finally announce their game, it's been almost 6 years. It has to be soon.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Bob-omb
How can you possibly do an "average sales of the DK platformer franchise" when there have been 3 mainline DK platformers released in the last 25 years and one of them was Jungle Beat (which I don't think sold very well)
LukasManak22
Adept
Yeah this. On another note, I swear that ever since the DK rumors started some people are acting like they are EPD experts and are following this topic for years. Either way, I don't care., Tokyo please show up. 3D Mario reserved for next machine, DK probably not.
LukasManak22
Adept
You mean three projects. Captain Toad 2.
KremlingKuthroat
Cappy
It’s obvious that this dude is a troll and is jealous that DK is getting any spotlight and this person’s goal is to derail the thread. Don’t pay any attention to them anymore
Codacious
Elfilin
Of the more recent DK games, DKCR outsold pretty much every Zelda game besides TP and OoT before BotW, and it's also around the same level of sales as OoT/TP. DKTF on Wii U outsold TP HD, around the same/just a tiny bit under WW HD, and the Switch port gives it another 4m+ in sales. In terms of sales, Zelda games were kind of on the same level as DK before BotW.
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Not believing there's a 3D DK game in development doesn't mean someone is a troll. There's no need to level accusations like that.
KremlingKuthroat
Cappy
Never said the game was certainly 3D, but if you come into a DK thread and say that the franchise is trash and unworthy of EPD, then I’m going to call that person a troll.
Disagreeing with the game being in development is fine and welcome but it’s silly to say this franchise is beneath EPD. I don’t want this thread to derail into “my franchise is better than your franchise” debates
frog
Amphibian Supreme
Crash Bandicoot, which would be even worse imo
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Who said this, and where? This is a crass misrepresentation of what someone said and this kind of attitude only helps this thread go off the rails.
It's not unreasonable to say Nintendo might prioritise certain franchises because of limited development resources. It's also not unreasonable to dispute that and suggest that things might be more nuanced. It's not difficult to discuss that in a civil manner, but that won't happen if you misrepresent what people say and take someone else's views as an insult.
Dante Kong
Stylin' Simian
Look all I'm gonna say is Activision already has a jungle faring, vineswinging platforming icon in their back catalog who should come back.
Crocodiles even got beef with him!
BooDestroyer
Tektite
I'm also waiting for EPD 9 to have a new Switch game in the works.
KremlingKuthroat
Cappy
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What's going on with this Vicarious Visions DK game that was cancelled? This thread is too dense to actually find the info I'm looking for haha.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Bob-omb
It's a rumor from DK Vine that makes no sense.
Smaggledaggle
Rattata
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Look at Page 7 & 8 or Page 13
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I think your argument would have landed better if you didn't bring up the sales stuff. I kind of get where you're coming from - Donkey Kong maybe could have been a 15m+ seller IP, but we have no way of knowing, and with resources already going to Mario/Zelda/Splatoon/Animal Crossing, it would take more effort for Nintendo to start cultivating Donkey Kong into that 10m+ IP. But that doesn't change the fact that DK was as consistent a seller if not moreso than Zelda (and I mean, if we're going to lowball and include spin-offs like Jungle Beat, Minish Cap is one of the worst selling Zelda games of all time and that's mainline)
That being said, I don't think that really disproves it, either, given how much Nintendo obviously sees the potential in the brand as of late. Also, while there's still overlap in employees, these are still different teams and it would be kind of hard to prove that there aren't enough employees at EPD to work on a big Donkey Kong game.
In other words I think you make some fair points to bring up, especially about how people might be overhyping themselves thinking it's either not 2D or not small scale 3D, but I don't think you supported it so well as to make it an actual argument against the rumors/speculation
Dark Cloud
Adept
The way I see it either we get the DK push or Mario push this second half.
KremlingKuthroat
Cappy
To be fair, it’s a rumor that started both here and there. The thread didn’t blow up Professor Chops made his post. Afaik he’s not a DK Vine forum member, but his post was cross posted on DK Vine, and the regulars of that forum, myself included, agreed that it lines up with a lot of the stuff we’ve heard.
A lot of DK Vine members made accounts and joined the discussion on this thread.
Dark Cloud
Adept
I wish the 3D DK game from VV leaks. DK really deserved another 3D game………
KremlingKuthroat
Cappy
I agree. I empathize with the people who’ve been waiting for another side scroller, but as someone who loves DK64 unabashedly, it’s a crime they’ve made us wait this long.
The last time we got a 3D DK game was last century. Put that in perspective lol
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Frankly even if it's a collectathon with massive sprawling levels, they should have parts of the game that change to a sidescrolling view, almost like Mario Odyssey. In Mario Odyssey, it was cute, but kind of a novelty since almost all the 2D platforming was super easy. In a 3D Donkey Kong game, you could make 2D sections that are more challenging and still present them in 3D just from a sidescrolling perspective, so it's kind of the best of DKC, but in the world of a normal 3D platformer.
Nathan Little
Koopa
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One reason why I want this to be a 3D platformer is that this is a series that started with pre rendered 3D graphics. It being "3D" was what turned many heads back in the day.
As much as I love DK 64, we truly never gotten a 3D DK game that fueled that sense of imagination that the Country games invoked. The Country series feels like a living breathing world whereas 64 felt like DK took some banana shrooms.
Whenever I look into the backgrounds in these games, I always feel like I'm missing out on something. Tree Top Town from DKC 1, for instance, had this mysterious vibe to it. Who lived there? Did other Kongs lived there? I always wanted to go inside the tree houses and see for myself. Of course Retro Studio dialed this sense of mystery up to eleven with their games, in particular with Autumn Heights.
As much as I love DK 64, we truly never gotten a 3D DK game that fueled that sense of imagination that the Country games invoked. The Country series feels like a living breathing world whereas 64 felt like DK took some banana shrooms.
Whenever I look into the backgrounds in these games, I always feel like I'm missing out on something. Tree Top Town from DKC 1, for instance, had this mysterious vibe to it. Who lived there? Did other Kongs lived there? I always wanted to go inside the tree houses and see for myself. Of course Retro Studio dialed this sense of mystery up to eleven with their games, in particular with Autumn Heights.
Dark Cloud
Adept
All signs point to Nintendo taking DK series and hopefully a big staple of their IP’s going forward. Knowing this they have to take it 3D at some point. You’re not keeping a staple franchise at 2D the entire time.
Magic-Man
Big Bad Wolf
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I was gonna bring up Kirby, but welp....
CyberWolfJV
I talk more about games than I play them
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I feel bitter when I read that "you can't have a ground-breaking game in 2D", when most of my favorite games are, in fact, 2D. Donkey Kong Country has a very particular flow, that I have a hard time imagining them translating it 1:1 to 3D.. or even with the suggestion above, giving sparse 2D sections in a 3D game, that won't fulfill that much (you know.. when people say that the "3D World fans" are well served by the mini-obstacle challenges in Odyssey? lol);
But I also understand the desire of seeing a 3D Donkey Kong again after so long.. If at least he had some playable role in a 3D game, say, like Wario and Yoshi in Super Mario 64 DS, but no.. nothing of sorts since DK64..
It's just that.. man... we simply aren't getting both, and saddens me a lot that I have to choose the "new and experimental" over the "old and beloved" :\
But I also understand the desire of seeing a 3D Donkey Kong again after so long.. If at least he had some playable role in a 3D game, say, like Wario and Yoshi in Super Mario 64 DS, but no.. nothing of sorts since DK64..
It's just that.. man... we simply aren't getting both, and saddens me a lot that I have to choose the "new and experimental" over the "old and beloved" :\
Codacious
Elfilin
Tbh, I feel like Crash comes pretty close to that “DKC in 3D” feel. There’s the nature themed environments, lots of animal characters, obstacle course platforming with I’d even say a pretty similar difficulty level. There’s even the slide jump which I feel like is similar in a lot of ways to DK’s roll jump.
There are def still enough differences between the series that they both feel unique as their own thing, but the way Crash does remind me of “3D DK” in so many ways makes me feel like if the new DK devs wanted to translate DKC gameplay to 3D, it could totally be possible imo.
There are def still enough differences between the series that they both feel unique as their own thing, but the way Crash does remind me of “3D DK” in so many ways makes me feel like if the new DK devs wanted to translate DKC gameplay to 3D, it could totally be possible imo.
CyberWolfJV
I talk more about games than I play them
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Of course; it wasn't a secret that Naughty Dog originally took lots of inspiration of the DKC games Rare made; Down to the HUD showing up only when you collect stuff to get you immersive, to themes that constantly got more evolved as both trilogies went further.
However, there's still the distinctive details that makes both very different of each other; As Crash makes more of an importance the completionism route, whereas DKC not so much (but it's there if you want to, with tangible rewards); -- Crash also plays a lot with the perspective, since back then they were trying to "invent" the 3D platformer, and had no template to base off (development started before Super Mario 64 had its first showing even), so more often than not they pick a "dimension" for a level to work with;
-- I also we've seen some suggestions of 3D DK being more 3D Land/3D World, and give a more top-down perspective.. but how dense the Donkey Kong settings are used to be, I don't know if that's the right way to do it either,..
and it's not even that I doubt EPD will do a great job, no matter what they decide to do.... is simply that is nothing there like a Donkey Kong Country game.. not even the inspired ones like Impossible Lair and Kaze and the Wild Masks scratch that exact same itch.
Dark Cloud
Adept
If they were doing open world DK I don’t see why they can’t do that.
Super Mario World to Mario 64 aren’t alike. I want what Rare did, but of course done much better.
Super Mario World to Mario 64 aren’t alike. I want what Rare did, but of course done much better.
Codacious
Elfilin
Tbh, I actually love playing Crash just going for simple game completion, not 100%. Simple game completion also probably makes it more of a DKC-like experience imo.
I’m actually not a huge fan of the 3D World camera perspective, it just isn’t as immersive to me as a fully 3D perspective. Also, 3D World kind of brings to mind stuff like floating platforms, floating islands, and other kinds of blocky environments that I don’t think would really fit in DK tbh. The movement in 3D World is also a little too rigid feeling for DK imo. I think it uses 8 direction movement instead of full analog? Something like that.
Agreed that neither of the 2 major “DKC-likes” so far, Impossible Lair/Kaze, have really reached the same level as DKC imo. Impossible Lair kind of has TF vibes, but it’s like a low budget, much less polished TF imo. Kaze’s gameplay I think is pretty good, it reminds me a lot of DKC1, but the art style/atmosphere just aren’t nearly on the level of the DKC games imo.
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AoiHana
Cappy
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We’re long past due for Mario Kart 9/10/whatever the hell they’re calling it, I’d be very surprised if it didn’t at least make Switch Redacted.
KremlingKuthroat
Cappy
My hope is that we get consistent 2D and 3D DK games alternating. Every other major Nintendo franchise has this such as Mario, Zelda and Metroid. Why couldn’t they do this for DK? Tanabe even hinted at this back in 2014: https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2...ghts_potential_return_of_3d_donkey_kong_games
I’m sure there’s plenty of studios capable of making a banger of a 2D platformer. I mean Nintendo let VV work on an open world DK game. I’m sure they’d find a passionate and great studio that could make s 2D DK if this game turns out to be 3D.
Mercury Steam was a studio I’ve never heard of until they started working on Metroid. There’s plenty of great studios out there. Imagine Playtonic making a 2D DK game with a Nintendo budget.
I’d like a 3D DK to follow what Rare’s vision was for DK64, just way better executed and streamlined. Rare had some awesome ideas, but they got carried away with the collectibles and the N64 just wasn’t powerful enough for a large scale DK like it can be made now. I think 5 Kongs is a unique mechanic that could help DK stand out from the crowd. Just make DK, Diddy, Dixie, Cranky and Funky the playable Kongs since they’re the most popular Kongs by far, add the animal buddies in a 3D space, bring the Kremlings back.
You can still have linear platforming as part of challenges. Imagine BotW like shrines but each shrine is a 2D platforming challenge or a linear 3D one. There’s ways you can do things to push the DK franchise forward without it losing its identity
I’m sure there’s plenty of studios capable of making a banger of a 2D platformer. I mean Nintendo let VV work on an open world DK game. I’m sure they’d find a passionate and great studio that could make s 2D DK if this game turns out to be 3D.
Mercury Steam was a studio I’ve never heard of until they started working on Metroid. There’s plenty of great studios out there. Imagine Playtonic making a 2D DK game with a Nintendo budget.
I’d like a 3D DK to follow what Rare’s vision was for DK64, just way better executed and streamlined. Rare had some awesome ideas, but they got carried away with the collectibles and the N64 just wasn’t powerful enough for a large scale DK like it can be made now. I think 5 Kongs is a unique mechanic that could help DK stand out from the crowd. Just make DK, Diddy, Dixie, Cranky and Funky the playable Kongs since they’re the most popular Kongs by far, add the animal buddies in a 3D space, bring the Kremlings back.
You can still have linear platforming as part of challenges. Imagine BotW like shrines but each shrine is a 2D platforming challenge or a linear 3D one. There’s ways you can do things to push the DK franchise forward without it losing its identity
Clov
Welcome to the True Bean's World
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If they're going to go back to 3D DK, I'd rather they go as far away from DK64 as possible! Awful game, and an absolutely miserable experience. A new 3D DK with 5 playable Kongs sounds pretty terrible, unless you're going to go the Mario 3D World route where you don't NEED all 5 to advance in different places like you did in DK64. Even then I would be hesitant. I'd much rather the whole game be linear platforming, give it some more focus.
But what would be even better than a 3D DK... is a 2D one! While Nintendo can definitely make a better platformer than DK64, the bar is extremely low. The bar for 2D DK may be high, but I'd love to see modern EPD Tokyo take a crack at it. While it has been a long time since Jungle Beat (an excellent game in its own right), I know they could leave their mark on the series and make something truly special.
But what would be even better than a 3D DK... is a 2D one! While Nintendo can definitely make a better platformer than DK64, the bar is extremely low. The bar for 2D DK may be high, but I'd love to see modern EPD Tokyo take a crack at it. While it has been a long time since Jungle Beat (an excellent game in its own right), I know they could leave their mark on the series and make something truly special.
KremlingKuthroat
Cappy
Why can't we have both?
Clov
Welcome to the True Bean's World
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Don't know, ask Nintendo! If I had to pick one, I'd rather they'd focus on 2D. I'm getting ahead of myself of course, but imagine a whole new trilogy of 2D DK! That would be fantastic. Perhaps EPD Tokyo could focus teams on different projects; one on 3D Mario, and another on 2D DK.
We'll have to see how it works out, but between the two, I know which one I'm cheering for!
Hailinel
Musou Mania!
I think people need to let go of the idea of any developer holding true to "Rare's vision". DK64 was an awful game that has a cheesy meme rap song. But even that aside, when Retro made two DKC games that were excellent, some DKC fans couldn't accept that they opted for new villains instead of bringing back Kremlings. That's not an invalid desire, but the devs should be allowed to cook with new ideas.
KremlingKuthroat
Cappy
The DK64 is an awful game is an opinion and you're welcome to it. Although Metacritic would disagree with a 90, even though Metacritic isn't the end all be all of delegating which games are quality or not. I also don't understand why a "cheesy" rap song is so offensive. It adds to the game's charm. DK is a goofy series that was never meant to be taken seriously.
I'm completely open to new ideas as long as it doesn't erase established mainstay characters like Jungle Beat did,
CyberWolfJV
I talk more about games than I play them
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DK64 is not a bad game in the slightest; just a nightmare to complete.
That applies to most collect-a-thons, to a variety of degrees (and even the more linear platform games like Crash); -- Super Mario 64 included, by the way.
That applies to most collect-a-thons, to a variety of degrees (and even the more linear platform games like Crash); -- Super Mario 64 included, by the way.
KremlingKuthroat
Cappy
My whole issue with the general online DK64 takes is that it's perfectly fine to say that you don't like the game or that it's tedious or that it's got a lot of design issues, or even that you hate the game. But the overwhelming narrative that it's this abomination of a game is just so hyperbolic and over the top. People act like it's Sonic 06. Does the game have flaws? Absolutely, but every game has flaws. I can overlook them and still enjoy the game. I suppose it's difficult for other people to do so though. I recently beat it a couple years ago and had a blast. The game is admittedly torturous to 100% though. That I'll agree on.
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