That graphic to me seems to suggest that both games take place at multiple points throughout the “hero is triumphant” branches that hasn’t been officially decided yet. I always figured it was in the adult timeline so this isn’t surprising.
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Spoiler The Legend of Zelda series timeline and lore discussion thread, post-TotK (full series open spoilers)
- Thread starter WestEgg
- Start date
Tye
All-around Nintendo enjoyer
- Pronouns
- they/them
Okay, stop right there, because this is NOT true, and I literally did exactly that regarding the Rauru stuff and you still haven’t acknowledged that at all.
Also, it’s not because “more people aren’t accepting my idea is correct” that I’ve been so frustrated—it’s that my posts here have only really gotten replies arguing against me, with no one feeling similar to me or backing me up, and that’s fucking exhausting and frustrating. I never claimed that my idea is definitely correct (though I do very much believe it makes the most sense of any option at this point, but none of us can claim to know what is absolutely correct), nor do I expect anyone else to believe as much, but I am surprised that I’ve not seen more positive reception to the idea, given that it seems rather obvious that it’s a very viable and likely possibility to me—and that’s strictly speaking about BotW/TotK taking place on a new timeline in general, not all the specifics of that timeline.
And I just admitted that I’ve probably been coming across too strongly to Mango in the very same post that you’re now responding to, so I’m not saying I’m free of any blame here at all, but you’ve certainly been no better yourself in your responses to me, like how you literally just mischaracterized me again in the same post where you claim I’ve not explained how you’ve been mischaracterizing me (which I just did here and in a previous post).
But this is exactly the thing you’ve been doing with me over and over again now, and I’m not gonna deal with it anymore. My previous post was supposed to be the last time I reply to you here, but I couldn’t let you just say that unchallenged. But I’m done now. Don’t expect another reply from me here.
andipossess
Cappy
- Pronouns
- they/she
I don't think it's intended that way. It looks like the timeline was shown on a slide of some sort, so I think it's just condensed horizontally to fit on the screen, since Downfall timeline has 2-3x as many games as the other timelines, because otherwise it's the same timeline we've seen elsewhere.
LegendHero
Shriekbat
I didn't respond to the Rauru thing because you keep saying you're done, I'm trying to respect that and not just continue the argument when you don't want to anymore. Regardless of who's right about what in the actual argument, you're wrong about me.
Rareware
Paratroopa
The issues I have with BotW/TotK fitting on the Adult Timeline is that OoT Ganondorf is dead and lying at the bottom of the sea alongside the Master Sword.
The issue with the Child Timeline is similar—OoT Ganondorf is also dead here. Not only that, but yet another Ganondorf is born in the time of FSA, which now means we have three entirely different Ganondorfs to contend with and make sense of.
And we also have the fact that in both the Adult and Child timelines, the water sage and water sage descendants (Ruto’s descendant specifically on the Adult Timeline) are murdered by Ganondorf. And I believe BotW states that Sidon is a descendant of Ruto? Feel free to correct me here if I’m mistaken.
And then you once again factor in the ‘Ganon is revived multiple times’ scenario and there’s quite literally only one timeline where that happens: the Hero is Defeated timeline. So it’s still the one that seems the most plausible imo.
The issue with the Child Timeline is similar—OoT Ganondorf is also dead here. Not only that, but yet another Ganondorf is born in the time of FSA, which now means we have three entirely different Ganondorfs to contend with and make sense of.
And we also have the fact that in both the Adult and Child timelines, the water sage and water sage descendants (Ruto’s descendant specifically on the Adult Timeline) are murdered by Ganondorf. And I believe BotW states that Sidon is a descendant of Ruto? Feel free to correct me here if I’m mistaken.
And then you once again factor in the ‘Ganon is revived multiple times’ scenario and there’s quite literally only one timeline where that happens: the Hero is Defeated timeline. So it’s still the one that seems the most plausible imo.
My assumption was Ganondorf at the bottom of the sea was reborn over and over until he became calamity Ganon. It’s implied the Great Sea was drained at some point. He is reincarnated in the child timeline (FSA) so I don’t see why it couldn’t happen in the adult.
The Ganondorf you fight at the end of the game is of course a different Ganondorf who came after the OoT Ganondorf.
Rareware
Paratroopa
There’s a big difference in amother Ganondorf being born and a Ganondorf that is sealed away and constantly revived. One is the same Ganondorf time and time again throughout the ages and the other is just another Gerudo man that was named Ganondorf. Reincarnation or no, he’s still different. And then again, there’s three Ganondorfs then that’s needed to be track of as opposed to the already two.
As for the Adult Timeline, you’ve still got the Master Sword to contend with. The sea is still present in BotW/TotK and The Master Sword is still in The Lost Woods on the pedestal where it has always been on the Hero is Defeated timeline. Everything there lines up there, again.
The Adult Timeline is the least likely of the three timelines as not much of anything lines up at all.
Elementary
Moblin
BotW doesn't say anything about Sidon being related to to Ruto except that the Zora armor had been made for a Zora Princess's beloved. Which doesn't happen in Ocarina, and also the Zora in Ocarina don't age as slowly as BotW Zora so it's actually evidence for "timelines are dead" since the BotW Zora are an entirely separate species.
Only the Water Sage was killed by Ganondorf in Twilight Princess since it happened at his execution site, but also the sages powers don't have to pass down through bloodline. LttP and FSA has all the maidens be Hylians instead of any other species, while the water sage in ALBW is a (river) Zora and thus presumably not related to Ruto or the LttP sage/maiden.
andipossess
Cappy
- Pronouns
- they/she
While it's true that BotW doesn't say Sidon is related to Ruto, TotK does:
(from Learnings of the Zora, Part Two)
Elementary
Moblin
Very fair.
But like I said, the Zora don't age the same between the games so they're not the same species.
andipossess
Cappy
- Pronouns
- they/she
This is a series where Zora also became Rito and where Kokiri became Koroks, so I don't think it's outlandish that in some 10,000+ years Zora-aging changed through some unexplained means, but it's fair if you don't think they're the same species.
Still, if they were the same species, I doubt Nintendo would bother explaining the aging differences anyway unless it became story-relevant. Nintendo can't even consistently decide if the humans of Hyrule have round or sharp ears or if that makes any difference at all.
Still, if they were the same species, I doubt Nintendo would bother explaining the aging differences anyway unless it became story-relevant. Nintendo can't even consistently decide if the humans of Hyrule have round or sharp ears or if that makes any difference at all.
Elementary
Moblin
Yeah that's why I think the timelines won't be a thing with Zelda going forward. We've already had the devs say they don't care much about sticking with the timeline in an interview, now we just have to have them say that the old games have to be directly related.
The ear thing was explained neatly ages ago, back with like LttP. It's a racial trait that a minority of hylians have and it doesn't do anything (except according to folklore you can hear the gods more easily). Even back in the Zelda 1 concept art you can see that Link and Impa are the only long-eared hylians. Zelda herself might not have the long ears there.
The ear thing was explained neatly ages ago, back with like LttP. It's a racial trait that a minority of hylians have and it doesn't do anything (except according to folklore you can hear the gods more easily). Even back in the Zelda 1 concept art you can see that Link and Impa are the only long-eared hylians. Zelda herself might not have the long ears there.
Rareware
Paratroopa
Them potentially aging different between games doesn’t make them a different species. There’s only two types of Zora: the Sea Zora as presented as the friendlier race and the often hostile River Zora. There’s very distinct difference in each of their appearances.
And has already been pointed out, Sidon is a descendant of Princess Ruto, which also clearly makes them both of the same species.
Rareware
Paratroopa
They literally just updated the timeline to include the Secret Stones as being a gift to Hylia from the goddesses. If they didn’t care, they wouldn’t continue to a)update it and b) have it on display for all to see at these events of theirs.
Elementary
Moblin
The people actually in charge of selling Zelda games to people know the fans like the timeline. However the devs have said that the timeline doesn't really come into the equation of how they think about making new Zelda games. Hence why it gets harder and harder to place the games with every new release. They're just making the games they want to make and other people are putting together a puzzle that's not meant to fit.
andipossess
Cappy
- Pronouns
- they/she
I'd argue that their thought process is a bit different from that. From what I gather, what they meant is that when coming up with the game, they come up with game mechanics first, figure out the basic story, then they figure out what the best place to put it in relation to other games. Not all of the games do this (the Four Swords games come to mind....) but it's pretty clear to me that they do think about the Timeline when putting the games together, even if it's not always clear from the information in the games themselves.
What we're seeing here, I think, is more a result of Fujibayashi taking the helm. Fujibayashi clearly has a different style when it comes to connecting the games vs Aonuma whose games had far more explicit connective tissue.
What we're seeing here, I think, is more a result of Fujibayashi taking the helm. Fujibayashi clearly has a different style when it comes to connecting the games vs Aonuma whose games had far more explicit connective tissue.
Triistan
Bob-omb
IMHO the real “turning point” was Botw success. Nobody was expecting a 30 million seller, opening the franchise for the first time to broader audience. It’s understandable that they wanted a new timeline retelling the basics of the saga to not alienate the newcomers.
Elementary
Moblin
I don't think that's quite right because the whole "split timeline" thing didn't exist at all until Twilight Princess, and then the people who did HH created the downfall timeline wholecloth rather than say TP led to the older games.
andipossess
Cappy
- Pronouns
- they/she
The Split Timeline has existed since Wind Waker. They mention it in an interview that was originally posted on Nintendo's official website, which I can't find the link to right now.
But here's a quote from it:
This isn't the only interview where it's brought up.
You're right about Hyrule Historia's Downfall Timeline seemingly coming out of nowhere, though, but the writing was on the wall for some shenanigans there ever since it became clear that OoT's story diverged from ALttP's Imprisoning War.
Elementary
Moblin
Hmm interesting, never saw that. I imagine the idea was that Link to the Past was the other timeline branch? Wonder what would have happened if there hadn't been such insane pushback against Wind Waker's graphics.
Funny enough it all works if you ignore the manuals...
andipossess
Cappy
- Pronouns
- they/she
At the time, the other timeline branch was Majora's Mask, which started a bit after the ending of Ocarina of Time where Link is a child, hence the child timeline.
ziggyrivers
aura
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- He/him/his
Hey, @Tye ! I'm not that deep into Timeline discussions, but I really appreciate the effort and dedication you've put into Fourth Timeline idea. I'm not a fan of yet another Timeline split, but the series is no stranger to Timelines split, especially introducing one like the Fallen Hero Timeline, so I honestly wouldn't be surprised if BOTW and TOTK take place in a timeline where knowledge of the Goddess Hylia was always present.
Rareware
Paratroopa
Yep. And then two things happen there a)Link tells Zelda of everything that happens in the future with Ganondorf (basically the entire OoT quest he just endured) and b)Link leaves Hyrule to search for Navi.
An interview with Aunoma back in the day explained the backstory leading into TP but I can’t find it for the life of me. So I’ll give a recap of what the interview was about.
So at the very, very end of OoT, you see Zelda and Link standing together in the Hyrule Castle courtyard. It’s the very moment they meet for the first time after future Zelda sent Link back in time. Here he informs her of everything that’s going to come to pass.
Zelda believes him and then she tells her father and convinces him that Ganondorf is an evil man and not to be trusted. Link leaves Hyrule to search for Navi.
At some point, Ganondorf plans to attack Hyrule but fails and is captured by the King and many years later is sentenced to be executed. Then you have the actual in-game execution in the flashback scene of Twilight Princess after beating the Arbiter Grounds.
Triistan
Bob-omb
An honest question from someone who knows less than many of you here: Is it possible that the story of TotK tells of a new foundation of Hyrule after Wind Waker?
Let me explain: if I remember correctly, in BotW there are texts in the zora’s kingdom that mention the sages and the hero of OoT, and since they mention the hero, it must be the WW timeline (in MM and TP, the OoT hero/Link is not famous). What if they rebuilt the old Hyrule in its original land many (thousands!) years after the events of WW? They could have found the Master Sword embedded in Ganondorf’s body, and by pulling it out, they restarted the cycle of resurrections.
Edit: Obviously, this implies that the Great Sea must have receded over the centuries.
Let me explain: if I remember correctly, in BotW there are texts in the zora’s kingdom that mention the sages and the hero of OoT, and since they mention the hero, it must be the WW timeline (in MM and TP, the OoT hero/Link is not famous). What if they rebuilt the old Hyrule in its original land many (thousands!) years after the events of WW? They could have found the Master Sword embedded in Ganondorf’s body, and by pulling it out, they restarted the cycle of resurrections.
Edit: Obviously, this implies that the Great Sea must have receded over the centuries.
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Hauke_von_Arding
Bob-omb
- Pronouns
- he/him
Very unlikely. They already founded a new realm after Wind Waker which has no connection to Hyrule and all. And it would destroy the whole message of Wind Waker which was "Make your own thing, let Hyrule, the Triforce, Ganondorf and all that behind and make your own future."
Rareware
Paratroopa
Two issues with this. First off, Sidon in BotW/TotK is a descendant of Princess Ruto. At the end of OoT, Ganondorf makes a promise to Link and Zelda that one day when the seal is broken, he will kill the descendants of the Sages. When the seal does eventually break and prior to the gods flooding Hyrule, Ganondorf fulfills his promise and kills Princess Ruto and Saria’s descendants. Ruto’s descendant’s death means there is no path for Ruto’s bloodline to continue, thus there is no Sidon.
Secondly, there are no longer any Zora on the Adult timeline anyway. They evolved into the Rito.
EDIT: I am completely wrong about the first part. I forgot that Medli is also a descendant of Ruto.
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- Pronouns
- He
... Unless they had a child before they were killed. It's practically trivial, lol.
Anyway that's not how evolution works. When some evolution happens of a species, the previous ones don't stop existing. The idea that the one kind of creature who couldn't survive the world flooding is the ones who literally live in the ocean was always absurd, especially when the bloody rock people who die if they so much as slip in water somehow survived.
And even if you somehow do buy in to the idea that evolution is magic and works like that, then it's trivial for some of them to "evolve" back in to the Zora once the threat of ganondorf had passed.
Rareware
Paratroopa
You know what, I’m dumb and will also edit my other post. I completely forgot about Medli, who also is a descendant of Ruto.
As for the other thing you’re saying, I can only go by what is presented. And what is presented in the games and thus far in the books, is that the Zora evolved into the Rito and there has been no Zora seen since. Not in TWW, PH, or ST.
Triistan
Bob-omb
Yeah, and WW was great because of that, and it would be cool to see the main 3D Zelda games following that route (it’s a shame we never got the WW sequel originally planned for the GC). But the market didn’t respond very well to WW, so it’s no surprise to me that they backpedaled on the original intention.
Yeah, you’re right, but as @Linkstrikesback said, it’s nothing they can’t fix with some easy explanation (and a few centuries between the games), if they want to.
However at this point it’s probably more logical for them to establish a new timeline without being limited by 30 years of games.
Triistan
Bob-omb
One thing: it’s also true that we don’t see Rito in child and downfall timeline
omniryu
Paratroopa
- Pronouns
- He/him
Well, it is the only one that make sense. Think with a whole new timeline, you're allowed to do whatever you want. We have an ancient hero who is a Zonai. We have three legendary dragon. Four, If you Include zelda. You can even still repeat events like Twilight princess and have a previous hero defeat Zant and Ganon's malice.
But for now, it just an interpretation. I just suggest to anyone to be open minded of what happens next.
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Mango
Eltit Motsuc
- Pronouns
- She, Her
I think in regards to Ruto, the Child Timeline makes the most sense. Whether they're dead or not something weird is going on with the sages in OOTs adult half, where they show up at the beginning of the the Temple you're playing through and then disappear near the end only to end up trapped in either the Sacred Realm or Ganon's Castle, and given they don't reunite with their people at the end of the game that makes it all more strange. The CT on the other hand is only branch where she doesn't have to awaken as a sage in a ruined Hyrule, but is also the only branch where she doesn't meet Link and pledge to marry him, meaning she probably had a regular Zora child and that eventually lead to Sidon.
Rareware
Paratroopa
But this would conflict with the Zora Tablet in BotW which directly states that she fought alongside Link and Zelda against Ganondorf.
LegendHero
Shriekbat
Twilight Princess and the opening of Majora's Mask suggests the Hero of Time still went down in history/legend even in the child timeline.
Rareware
Paratroopa
Yes, and he is only remembered by the Royal Family and that’s because he informs Zelda of his deeds in order to prevent the destruction of Hyrule by Ganondorf.
The Hero of Time in TP (The Hero’s Shade) laments the fact that he died never being remembered as a hero.
While his deeds are remembered by the Royal Family, I’d presume that his regret is due to not being remembered at large by the overall populace. He saved the world and no one really knew about it. It clearly weighed on him pretty heavily.
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Mango
Eltit Motsuc
- Pronouns
- She, Her
Well the idea of the hero only has to be passed down not the identity. Which given he traveled through time, and knew about the Sacred Realm, he was probably told to keep himself a secret.
Admittedly tho, given how important OOT is to BOTW I kinda don't like it being on a branch that doesn't have the actual events happen.
Admittedly tho, given how important OOT is to BOTW I kinda don't like it being on a branch that doesn't have the actual events happen.
LegendHero
Shriekbat
I think Hyrule Historia is wrong about that, the Hero's Shade says in Twilight Princess itself that his regret was that he couldn't pass on his teachings, and indeed teaching his descendant allows him to pass on.
korok
The Baby.
- Pronouns
- He/him
I'm not in the mood to make a detailed post right now, but if it helps you, I kinda buy your theory. I don't agree with each and every point, but with the general idea I do. I find BotW and specially TotK irreconcilable with any of the three timelines, so that's an explanation that fits with my own vision.
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Rareware
Paratroopa
Which would make both true. Neither contradicts one another. Hyrule Historia, Creating A Champion, Master Works, and interviews from the developers are just as canon as the games themselves. We were just presented with more insight into the character that we didn’t know before.
LegendHero
Shriekbat
It's contradicted by Twilight Princess itself when all sorts of characters know of the hero. But I've had this argument a bunch of times over the years so I don't need to argue about it if you disagree. I personally think that's one of the areas where HH is unequivocally wrong, though.
ziggyrivers
aura
- Pronouns
- He/him/his
Random thought: what if the Fourth Timeline Split includes games from the other timelines? Like, events that happened in the other Timelines also happen in the Fourth one. For example:
Fourth Split > Minish Cap > OOT > Twilight Princess
But OOT without the split
Fourth Split > Minish Cap > OOT > Twilight Princess
But OOT without the split
NBOctoling
Octoling
- Pronouns
- They/Them
So anyways, my random theory is that Kotake and Koume are the same people across the games. They were followers of the OG Ganondorf and when he was sealed, worked behind the scenes to try and revive him, not realizing he was dead. They are the reason why there are multiple Ganondorfs running around. Plus, they somehow came back after "dying" in OoT, so clearly they have to be the same!
What's my proof/evidence?
...
......
.........
And that's why it's fact!
What's my proof/evidence?
...
......
.........
And that's why it's fact!
SNP
Sorcerer Supreme
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Found this video a few weeks ago and people who said something like these 2 points: "the dev don't care about the timeline" or "Nintendo just make up the timeline in Hyrule Historia to please fans" has always been wrong imho (with the backup in the video).
About the first point, I strongly believe it's not that they don't care about the timeline, it just that they won't get bound/restricted by the timeline if the game required it. When they make a new Zelda game, they definitely will think about where the game will fit on the timeline, they just not be strict about it like SW, GoT, etc.
The 2nd point already be proven by the video, you can argue they make up the reason for the existence of the "Downfall timeline" (and you probably are right), but it doesn't change the fact that we have evidence of where most of the game fit with each other (and that is a timeline already).
About the first point, I strongly believe it's not that they don't care about the timeline, it just that they won't get bound/restricted by the timeline if the game required it. When they make a new Zelda game, they definitely will think about where the game will fit on the timeline, they just not be strict about it like SW, GoT, etc.
The 2nd point already be proven by the video, you can argue they make up the reason for the existence of the "Downfall timeline" (and you probably are right), but it doesn't change the fact that we have evidence of where most of the game fit with each other (and that is a timeline already).
Mango
Eltit Motsuc
- Pronouns
- She, Her
This is has kinda been my theory since launch of TotK. It explains how FSA Ganondorf exists because they don't fight OOT Link in the CT.
Basically:
They're born and live as TotKdorfs aides/maybe daughters > TotKdorf is sealed and they go into hiding > eventually they have access to another Gerudo male and raise him to become OOT Ganondorf > everything else
Rareware
Paratroopa
I’m not trying to argue and I apologize if I’m somehow coming across in bad faith or something. I haven’t played TP in nearly a decade so I honestly don’t recall other people talking about the hero. I also don’t want to come across as someone who is trying to push or force my belief of the BotW/TotK taking place on the Hero Defeated timeline. It’s just the one that makes the most sense to me personally and that has the most evidence when compared to the others.
I’m completely, 100% open to any timeline. Heck, even the “4th timeline” some seem so intent on pushing. I just haven’t seen enough to convince me of any of the other three possibilities as of yet. But I’m willing to change to my mind and reevaluate everything if things are presented to me.
LegendHero
Shriekbat
No, I didn't mean to imply you were doing anything wrong, I just know some people are very invested in the idea that the hero was forgotten in the CT in spite of the references in Twilight Princess so I didn't want to relitigate it. It's just something I've seen debated a lot before, but it's nothing you did at all.
omniryu
Paratroopa
- Pronouns
- He/him
Possible. Remember there's likely a a twilight mirror in the fourth timeline. The sacred train in new hyrule. The idea of a new timeline means you can have some events and character still be the same. So like Princess Ruto was something that was always meant to be and same with Darunia. In fact, we can get an event of the ritos evolving from a separate Zora tribe
Well right now, the Fourth timeline make more sense now that Totk is here. We aren't trying to push it to be Canon or that they should ignore the official canon. It is when you think of what gives the less problem.
- It explains Hylia as the dominant religion over the three goddess.
- Explains why we had zelda as a dragon from all that time.
- It explain why this imprisoning war is different from ocarina of time (Zelda didn't seal; not in the sacred realm).
- It doesn't contradict Impa being the last of her race.
- It doesn't retcon anything in the other three timeline. Like you don't need Link to die for a third timeline.
Triistan
Bob-omb
In Botw we have the rock salt description that talks about an “ancient sea”, so maybe it’s happened something similar to WW event too.
If they want to remake old games à la FF7 they can change the story to fit all the events in this new fourth timeline without retconning the old titles.
Game Freak have been doing this since forever with their pokemon remakes.
Rareware
Paratroopa
It’s certainly new stuff that I’ve forgotten about that I’ll keep in mind. I want to play through the game again when it eventually gets re-released, so I’ll definitely be on the lookout for the references.
I get it. I get what you’re saying, but I just can’t subscribe to nor commit to a 4th timeline as of this moment as I believe there’s far too much referencing back to previous games, especially Ocarina of Time, to be ignored.
ziggyrivers
aura
- Pronouns
- He/him/his
Yes! I meant to mention this as well, but I don't think Nintendo would make a remake out of, say, OOT, a la FFVII Remake.
