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Pre-Release The Legend of Zelda: Echoes of Wisdom — Pre-release Discussion Thread (UPDATE: new "Traversing the Still World" trailer, see threadmarks)

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Didn't Zeltik do a video about all the problems he had with Tears of the Kingdom, anyway? I don't find his videos particularly interesting or insightful, but it seems like he's not compelled to be endlessly positive about the series.
 
Holdsworth said:
Really appreciate the no commentary gameplay. Thanks. This looks & sounds excellent - I'm so excited for it. The music really stood out to me (big improvement over BotW/ToTk) & the sound effects. Nintendo are masters at that.
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Echoes of wisdom music style, remind of me who the Link’s Awakening music sound, is Ryo Nagamtsu composing Echoes of Wisdom music?
 
LegendHero said:
Didn't Zeltik do a video about all the problems he had with Tears of the Kingdom, anyway? I don't find his videos particularly interesting or insightful, but it seems like he's not compelled to be endlessly positive about the series.
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A "Disappointing Masterpiece" is what he described TOTK as.
 
Yeah, I forgot his exact wording. I guess it's up to the individual if they think he was forced to call it a masterpiece by Nintendo or if him saying it was disappointing is proof he isn't required to be positive about everything.
 
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If Nintendo actually forced positivity in ToTK, I wouldn't have to wade through a bunch of shitty youtube videos insisting that ToTK is secretly a bad, garbage game that people don't actually know they don't like because they don't have the intelligence to realize the "minecraft building blocks" are there to distract you from the fact that this is objectively the worst game in existence and that people who enjoy are inherently bad people.

Or, being a Zelda fan online has become increasingly hard as the loud loud LOUD assholes bully people out.
 
LegendHero said:
Yeah, I don't know why Youtube in particular hates Tears of the Kingdom so much.
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Probably because the algorithm rewards videos titled ‘10 worst things about Zelda TotK’ or stuff like that, same goes for anything else that’s popular. It pops up in front of all the millions of people that enjoyed it as well as the people looking to stand up their opinion to the opposite. People want to be vindicated in their opinion, or ammunition for console wars, or even to share something just so they can say ‘this is ridiculous’. Controversial video titles just get more clicks than nuanced ones. It’s also a lot less effort to tear things down than to talk about why something works.
 
A lot of big Zelda YouTubers are loreheads too and TotK kinda flew in the face of a bunch of theories I guess, I don’t know much about it, but that’s what I’ve gathered
 
It's wild that this is what comes up when you search "tears of the kingdom" on YouTube:

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JR436 said:
A "Disappointing Masterpiece" is what he described TOTK as.
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He also called it DLC
 
Existing as a Zelda fan online has always been a struggle. Even before BOTW shook things up the Fandom was already at war between calling Windwaker a shit game that ruined the franchise or Twilight Princess being the worst game in the series.

Things have only gotten worse as the franchise has become increasingly experimental. I love the series for it but talking about the franchise in some spaces reaches Paper Mario discourse levels of exhausting at times.
 
I will never understand people that go to the effort to make entire videos shitting on things they don’t like in series they otherwise do. It’s like… there are stacks of gaming series that have now been around for nearly 40 years. They need to constantly change things up or stagnate. Which is where the bizarre accusation you get that ‘turn based RPGs never change’ comes from when it’s a genre that, outside of Dragon Quest, has games introduce new twists on the battle systems all the time.

Almost all the series I can think of from the 80s, from Mario to Zelda, Castlevania to Final Fantasy, Megaman to Ys, Fire Emblem to Kid Icarus, have explored different ideas over the years, only to move on in good time. So why worry.

I’ve almost certainly written posts criticising this, that or the other entry that I didn’t enjoy. But the level of venom and hyperbole I see about videogames sometimes is ridiculous, like a game not meeting their expectations means it was crafted out of pure hatred for the ‘true fans’ or some other bollocks.
 
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I've spent a lot of time training myself to block shit out and actually enjoy things.

I've been called a lot of things... A shill, and apologist, a fanboy... But the fact of the matter is I could argue that shit until I'm blue in the face, but all it's going to do is piss me off, tire me out, and sour me on the whole experience. Since I started tuning shit out, I've had a great time. TotK? Loved it, top 10. Wind Waker? Amazing game, especially the Wii U remaster. Twilight Princess? One of my favourite Zeldas, right up there with Skyward Sword (come at me). Mario Wonder? Amazing, full of charm, a relaxing yet challenging experience that made me smile from beginning to end. The Mario movie? A full-circle moment, an unforgettable experience shared with my girls, I cried FFS. Ad infinitum.

According to Youtube and the internet in general, I shouldn't enjoy these things and I'm a terrible person who's part of the problem if I enjoy them.

Fuck 'em.
 
Mellifluus said:
I myself am disappointed in TotK and still find the discussion and hate on youtube surrounding it depressing. I wonder what is the reaction from Nintendo to that.
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‘50 million copies of Zelda sold at full price over two games. All the social media whining is just further engagement’
 
Look it's the sad truth that if you title your video "TotK is really good, but it has some flaws, which I'm going to discuss herein" you won't get clicks. YouTubers need to make money, and the way you do that is by making the exact same video but calling it "TotK is a disappointment"

We should start judging creators by their actual arguments; not by the ugly dances the algorithm contorts them in to performing, I think.
 
Tbf I'd probably call ToTK a disappointing masterpiece and it's also probably one of my favorite games of all time. Haven't watched Zeltik's video though

I do feel it's at this weird intersection where it's both an incredible game with a ton of creativity and exciting ideas and at the same time a vague disappointment due to high expectations, long dev time, and the fact that the base is still so similar to BoTW.

But yeah I've kinda given up on a lot of Zelda online discussion too since it can get kinda exhausting. But happily the series itself has never been better (for me)
 
VegiHam said:
Look it's the sad truth that if you title your video "TotK is really good, but it has some flaws, which I'm going to discuss herein" you won't get clicks. YouTubers need to make money, and the way you do that is by making the exact same video but calling it "TotK is a disappointment"

We should start judging creators by their actual arguments; not by the ugly dances the algorithm contorts them in to performing, I think.
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I don’t know, I’m quite happy not to bother reading news stories where the headline is pure fictional clickbait, I don’t put a YouTubers desire for money as a good reason to put out crap video titles. There’s plenty of good gaming stuff to watch that isn’t titled as hyperbolic nonsense. Having said that I’m old enough that I don’t really give a shit about influencers/YouTubers anyway.
 
I feel like video essays on YouTube surrounding games tend to skew way too heavily on tearing down good games. And most of them are why they subjectively don't like the choices the developers made rather than attempting to view games from the developers perspective and trying to understand why they made the choices they did.

Criticism is fun but it's often taken to the extreme in these types of videos.
 
NeonStarz said:
I feel like video essays on YouTube surrounding games tend to skew way too heavily on tearing down good games. And most of them are why they subjectively don't like the choices the developers made rather than attempting to view games from the developers perspective and trying to understand why they made the choices they did.

Criticism is fun but it's often taken to the extreme in these types of videos.
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yeah i mean lets not pretend that the internet and society incentivizes negativity. Most negativity is overdone because of this and why I tend to be very dismissive of negativity from youtubers a shitty influencers.
 
NabiscoFelt said:
I do feel it's at this weird intersection where it's both an incredible game with a ton of creativity and exciting ideas and at the same time a vague disappointment due to high expectations, long dev time, and the fact that the base is still so similar to BoTW.
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yeah, that’s where I’m at. Most vocal disappointment with it is in the context of its release timing, as that context fades it’ll be looked back on incredibly fondly (as it is for a huge majority of people already, let’s not forget)
 
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Hocot8 said:
yeah i mean lets not pretend that the internet and society incentivizes negativity. Most negativity is overdone because of this and why I tend to be very dismissive of negativity from youtubers a shitty influencers.
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Like others have said, people like negativity. Early gaming centered youtube channels were all about shitting on games. A 3 hour. Video talking about why some game is amazing will get less interaction than the same video calling it terrible.
And people have the right to voice their qualms about a game they were dissapointed in.

But I think so much of gaming criticism on YouTube is just pure garbage.
 
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I'm just trying to say, if you see a long video with a negative title; don't assume without watching that it's hours of nothing but vitriol and bile. It could be a perfectly even handed analysis that's just got the most algorithm friendly title. Video creators need to pay bills; but there's no reason to assume the worst without checking.
 
VegiHam said:
Look it's the sad truth that if you title your video "TotK is really good, but it has some flaws, which I'm going to discuss herein" you won't get clicks. YouTubers need to make money, and the way you do that is by making the exact same video but calling it "TotK is a disappointment"

We should start judging creators by their actual arguments; not by the ugly dances the algorithm contorts them in to performing, I think.
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There are two inherent problems with this:

1. I am not always able to dedicate 15 minutes to a video, let alone 1+ hours. Someone shoving a stream of consciousness without any way to view a summary on their points is not going to make me click on a video to check.
2. Thanks to the algorithm, I am unable to click on a video willy nilly if I want to preserve my sanity because Youtube heavily favors right winged garbage if you give them a single centimeter. Especially given negative video game critics, many of whom can be secret or not-so-secret Nazis of which you accidentally click on a video and Youtube will recommend nothing but the worst right-wing slop to you for months even if you go out of your way and watch nothing but left-leaning videos.

I get that controversy sells, it's why the other forum sites do garbage hot take thread titles to get more posts in their threads. But youtube in particular advocates for violent right-wing rhetoric too much for me to give it a fair chance, which is why so many people need a tl;dr summary because I do not have the time nor trust the algorithm if I make a mistake.
 
I've heard the complaints about Tears of the Kingdom and I've played it twice, I don't really need to watch a bunch of videos just to verify that the people with the titles that say it's terribad are doing so in earnest or not. Especially because how many views a video gets is going to be seen as a sign of the video's quality even if I vehemently disagree with it. I don't want the Zelda team to decide they have to try and distance themselves from something I loved just because I gave views to a bunch of videos by critics I don't respect at all just so it doesn't seem like I'm a "shill" or in a bubble or anything like that. I know what the criticisms are and I largely disagree with them.
 
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PixelKnight said:
I will never understand people that go to the effort to make entire videos shitting on things they don’t like in series they otherwise do.
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Because negativity drives engagement, and engagement = views, views = profit and growth. It’s depressing, but that’s how things have become.

Which is why I straight up just do not browse YouTube or any site that pushes content to me via an algorithm. Fuck that shit. Don’t follow influencers, don’t concern yourself with what’s tending, and just do your own thing instead and you’ll be shocked with how much negativity is eliminated.
 
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B. Spaceman said:
I think he left Nintendo not too long ago, sadly...
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could he composed both Splatoon 3 and Echoes of Wisdom, before he left Nintendo? both these games been his final work for Nintendo, or since he is now freelancer, Nintendo could asked him to compose Echoes of Wisdom
 
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PixelKnight said:
I will never understand people that go to the effort to make entire videos shitting on things they don’t like in series they otherwise do. It’s like… there are stacks of gaming series that have now been around for nearly 40 years. They need to constantly change things up or stagnate. Which is where the bizarre accusation you get that ‘turn based RPGs never change’ comes from when it’s a genre that, outside of Dragon Quest, has games introduce new twists on the battle systems all the time.

Almost all the series I can think of from the 80s, from Mario to Zelda, Castlevania to Final Fantasy, Megaman to Ys, Fire Emblem to Kid Icarus, have explored different ideas over the years, only to move on in good time. So why worry.

I’ve almost certainly written posts criticising this, that or the other entry that I didn’t enjoy. But the level of venom and hyperbole I see about videogames sometimes is ridiculous, like a game not meeting their expectations means it was crafted out of pure hatred for the ‘true fans’ or some other bollocks.
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Critically engaging with media is cool and rewarding actually
 
I don't have an issue with those videos existing tbh.

I just choose to ignore them. Give it a few months and there will be an "Astro Bot is Mid, Actually" essay somewhere on YouTube
 
Weiss said:
Critically engaging with media is cool and rewarding actually
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While this is true, the vast majority of YouTube content, particularly content surrounding Video Games, are less critical engagement and more repackaging opinion and personal headcanon as some stated fact. In addition, it is very rare that I will find any video that actually puts its sources in its description or even in the video itself, instead being 100% reliant on the youtuber for verification.

This is further exacerbated by the longform Youtube format being seen as some sort of mark of quality, rather than just a long video. So they tend to be used, not to critically engage with the work, but for boring opinion wars on the internet. And that's the problem with many YouTube video essays, it's not looking for a critical engagement, it's looking for clicks and opinion verification.

Anyways back on topic,



The Adventure of Link coincidences continue! /s
 
NBOctoling said:
While this is true, the vast majority of YouTube content, particularly content surrounding Video Games, are less critical engagement and more repackaging opinion and personal headcanon as some stated fact. In addition, it is very rare that I will find any video that actually puts its sources in its description or even in the video itself, instead being 100% reliant on the youtuber for verification.

This is further exacerbated by the longform Youtube format being seen as some sort of mark of quality, rather than just a long video. So they tend to be used, not to critically engage with the work, but for boring opinion wars on the internet. And that's the problem with many YouTube video essays, it's not looking for a critical engagement, it's looking for clicks and opinion verification.

Anyways back on topic,



The Adventure of Link coincidences continue! /s
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It's like everyone wants to be Joseph Anderson now. Now whenever I see a 5 hour video essay I just roll my eyes.
 
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I told myself I wouldn't watch any previews but I did watch one and that was a mistake because now the wait is gonna feel even longer.
 
Also I agree the sound design in the previews is immaculate. Not just the music but everything from the menus and enemies are very charming. I like the armadillo enemy that makes ricochet noises when he pinballs against walls.
 
i have also noticed this with Nintendo Switch Sports, was gonna actually make a topic on it lol. You would think the game was some massive flop with the way people talk about it but it's sold over 13 million!
 
Weiss said:
Critically engaging with media is cool and rewarding actually
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Critical analysis and having a negative opinion aren't actually the same thing. A lot of the best critical analysis isn't even based on the question of "good or bad?" at all. Most of these Youtubers aren't pointing out anything interesting about why something does or doesn't work.
 
LegendHero said:
Critical analysis and having a negative opinion aren't actually the same thing. A lot of the best critical analysis isn't even based on the question of "good or bad?" at all. Most of these Youtubers aren't pointing out anything interesting about why something does or doesn't work.
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Oh god yeah. I personally enjoy a video where someone goes in-depth in a nuanced and multifaceted way what they like because its interesting to listen to a new perspective (and to also see if what I was thinking was thought by others), but it feels like so many analysis vids on youtube are simply 'hi I'm person on the internet and I think xyz is bad. Why do I think its bad? Um. Moving on.' And it's just sort of disappointing. Why yes, I would like some explanation with my analysis!
 
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I have never - ever - interacted with the gaming side of Youtube, especially long-form critics. I've always felt like the clickbait engagement incentive would pollute real opinions, and frankly I'm too old and just don't have the time. I come to learn consensus gaming opinions from forums like an 80s kid should.

But now you're telling me that these people spend every moment in a kind of irrational frothing hatred of TotK? And they produce 100s of hours of such content? I have been too hard on these Youtubers. Perhaps they really are my people.
 
Don't know if anybody else notice, but the sword fighter form has the melody of the invincibility power up from Link's Awakening.
 
Weiss said:
Critically engaging with media is cool and rewarding actually
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There’s critically engaging with media. And then there’s subjective, superficial rants, of which the latter are far more common in the gaming space on YouTube.
 
Truno said:
It's wild that this is what comes up when you search "tears of the kingdom" on YouTube:

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He also called it DLC
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That's not the case when I try it so it must have something to do with the stuff you click on.
This video is at Nr. 43 in my list and the only other video that sounds a bit critical from the title is Zeltik's "disappointing masterpiece".

The rest are the official trailers, soundtrack, lore videos, special techniques, things you didn't know you can do in TotK or weird random funny stuff happening in the game.

I have seen Zeltik's video and I think it is absolutely a fitting title for his opinion (fair to say, I feel the same about the game, so there is that).

I am not sure (don't think so in here) if anyone called that video hours of ranting and hating, but if someone does, they are the ones who are exaggerating and are just not open to a discussion.

He is disappointed with aspects of the game and voices his opinion about it as a content creator. So what?

There are more clickbaity people out there, sure - but I don't have to watch it (especially if the video title gives it away already, like the one in the quote).
 
MisterSpo said:
INFORMATION FOR UNITED KINGDOM OF BLIGHTY AND NETHERPARTS IRE BASED FAMI MEMBERS

Echoes of Wisdom is obtainable from Currys for £37.49 if you use the discount code ZELDA25 when paying.
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That’s too good a price to pass up but I still (perhaps somewhat foolishly) sit here waiting for a CE edition to be announced. Even a steelbook &/or new Zelda amiibo.
 
People should receive others to express negative opinions about the games they like, and not appear so defensive. This is in line with people's usual gaming preferences. No game can receive unanimous praise. （Same for KOLs and media）

Finally, only sales and WOM are meaningful.
 
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Leo said:
I'm sure they're devastated, wiping their tears with all those yen bills
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I mean, reality can be complex, and probably the higher-ups are just wiping their tears with money like you say. But maybe some developers that spent a chunk of their life creating and envisioning the game feel a little conflicted. Also the fact that Aonuma and co. are always aware of the reception and criticism to their games (they acknowledged the criticism to Skyward Sword's linearity for example), makes me feel that maybe they do have an opinion on this matter. Not that their hopes and dreams got obliterated into oblivion or anything like that, though.
 
Quoted by: Leo
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