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News Sonic Origins releasing on June 23rd!

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KilgoreWolfe said:
Man, I need longer snippets of those to get a proper feel for them, but from that video the only one I feel is a straight downgrade is Icecap. Oh well, I'd still rather have the game with changed music than not have it at all.
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Seems TSS has us covered. I'm listening to them now as I type this:




Launch Base isn't up yet. Carnival Night sounds HORRIBLE! Icecap sounds fine imo.
 
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KilgoreWolfe said:
Man, I need longer snippets of those to get a proper feel for them, but from that video the only one I feel is a straight downgrade is Icecap. Oh well, I'd still rather have the game with changed music than not have it at all.
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ah dang, I was hoping Ice Cap could maybe stay because it wasn't a Jackson song but alas.. 😩
 
Jahranimo said:
Seems TSS has us covered. I'm listening to them now as I type this:



Launch Base isn't up yet. Carnival Night sounds HORRIBLE! Icecap sounds fine imo.
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You know, I was struggling for a moment to figure out what happened. Why do the Ice Cap tracks, which are relatively untouched from the beta, have the same lead instrument now? Why was Carnival Night butchered? Then it hit me.

They're trying to mimic the PC version.

Like, listen to Carnival Night Act 1 PC, then go back to listen to the Origins version:



Every single track change from beta, from the faster pace to the weirdly low lead instrument to the weaker transitions, can be traced to the PC version. Hell, even the Ice Cap lead instrument being the same in both acts is a change made for the PC version!

This whole thing was...a very weird choice. Given how Ice Cap (particularly Act 2) is basically 1:1 from beta, I'm frustrated with the choice of not just taking the Carnival Night tracks from the beta, because the original renditions are much better than the PC remixes (and now these new versions). I mean, I guess there's gotta be some Sonic and Knuckles Collection diehard who prefers the track be closer to PC? But man, what a way to completely miss such an easy shot.
 
chocolate_supra said:
ah dang, I was hoping Ice Cap could maybe stay because it wasn't a Jackson song but alas.. 😩
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I think the new tracks are good. But nostalgia is a strong drug, I’ll admit. I’ll get used to it. Looking forward to play these with a Sega Saturn pad, as my Switch still lives :D
 
VolcanicDynamo said:
You know, I was struggling for a moment to figure out what happened. Why do the Ice Cap tracks, which are relatively untouched from the beta, have the same lead instrument now? Why was Carnival Night butchered? Then it hit me.

They're trying to mimic the PC version.
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This was the exact conclusion I came to. These pitches sound EXACTLY like how I remembered them sounding in the S&K Collection back in the late 90s.

It's an odd feeling, because while I liked the proto versions these are "technically" the finished products of those same protos but just translated from the PC version.

Also here's Launch Base:
 
KilgoreWolfe said:
Hmmmm. I'm not as down on Carnival Night as you, but I do think the prototype version sounds better. Icecap is not bad, I just miss Hard Times.
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I just don't think those lower synth sounds feel "complete", everything else sounds alright though. Maybe it'll sound better while playing but it's odd.

Again, Icecap and Launch Base sound very good in this vs both the proto versions and the PC midi songs imo.
 
Jahranimo said:
This was the exact conclusion I came to. These pitches sound EXACTLY like how I remembered them sounding in the S&K Collection back in the late 90s.

It's an odd feeling, because while I liked the proto versions these are "technically" the finished products of those same protos but just translated from the PC version.

Also here's Launch Base:
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Yep! Same deal here! The track was made more like the PC version! Which kinda works out okay here, I guess?

So what we have is one track that's basically identical to beta (Ice Cap), one track that's dramatically worse (Carnival Night), and one track that's different but on-par (Launch Base). Not a great average, I gotta say!
 
Jahranimo said:
I just don't think those lower synth sounds feel "complete", everything else sounds alright though. Maybe it'll sound better while playing but it's odd.

Again, Icecap and Launch Base sound very good in this vs both the proto versions and the PC midi songs imo.
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I definitely get what you mean, it sounds weirdly muffled. I'm sure I'll get used to it. Ah well.
 


Perhaps I'm being hyperbolic, but this new Super Sonic track for S3K is fucking horrible. I almost feel bad ragging on Canival Night. At least that track uses S3K instrumentation, this almost sounds like a Sonic 4 track. Why is it using the Sonic 1 and 2 drum sample? Why does it sound so...limp and generic? Why???
 
VolcanicDynamo said:


Perhaps I'm being hyperbolic, but this new Super Sonic track for S3K is fucking horrible. I almost feel bad ragging on Canival Night. At least that track uses S3K instrumentation, this almost sounds like a Sonic 4 track. Why is it using the Sonic 1 and 2 drum sample? Why does it sound so...limp and generic? Why???
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Whoa, that sounds odd. I don't hate it but using the Sonic 1/2 snares is weird. Jun Senoue couldn't help it lol.

edit: Super Sonic has a bunch of new sprites, which makes sense since a lot of times when on the Carnival Night barrel or others where his back is shown, he looks like regular Sonic with shorter quills. That's a nice touch. Hearing CN in context with the rest of the level is alright I guess.
 
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Why do all the new versions of the proto tracks sound really muted, like they sucked all the energy out of the room?

Ice Cap is at least better than proto otherwise. Launch Base is... I think slightly worse. Carnival Night got massacred.
 
Zellia said:
Why do all the new versions of the proto tracks sound really muted, like they sucked all the energy out of the room?

Ice Cap is at least better than proto otherwise. Launch Base is... I think slightly worse. Carnival Night got massacred.
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The actual sound quality is due to the recording. The instrumentation, though? Gotta match that Sonic & Knuckles Collection on PC, baybeeeeeeee!!!

They had one job, one job! This was the easiest layup they could do and they fucked it up so bad!!!
 
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The proto tracks sound really out of place. Like icecap zone, proto track for instance sounds like it comes from a more chill and slower-paced game like Ristar. Doesn't really fit Sonic 3 at all IMO.

These aren't bad per se by themselves but It is such a shame that the original tracks couldn't have been included. I also think that these remastered versions of the prototype tracks sound worse than the original non-remastered version to boot.

Kind of a disappointing situation with the soundtrack in this collection all around. I wouldn't have been against these new tracks if they were just an option and they included the original MJ tracks but now this version of Sonic 3 can never really be the definitive version in my eyes because of the exclusion. I'm also not a fan of how this collection doesn't allow you to play in widescreen with the original lives system in place. a toggle would have been nice.
 
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To be perfectly honest, I wasn’t originally planning on buying this until it went on sale since $40 is kinda steep imo, but this altered (and really bad imo) Sonic 3 music is making me wonder if I want to support this at all. Sonic music is very important to me and I’m pretty bummed that SEGA is A-OK with tarnishing their musical legacy like this.

I understand not being able to get the Jackson estate music, but they could’ve at least put in SOME effort to replace them with quality original music…
 
Jahranimo said:
My guess is that Tee Lopes was busy and they don't have many others from that 90s era with experience to properly tweak those S&K PC songs.
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What's nutty is they do. Literally Jun Senoue. The only person I'd trust more than Tee with Sonic music. He did the remastering of the proto tracks for Origins.
 
I have to wonder if they were actually trying to secure the rights for the original music and, when they gave up, just gave Jun Sunoue no time or resources to do these. The more I listen to them the worse most of them sound. Carnival Night 2 and Launch Base 2 get slaughtered by the muffled sound and bad mixing.
 
Zellia said:
I have to wonder if they were actually trying to secure the rights for the original music and, when they gave up, just gave Jun Sunoue no time or resources to do these. The more I listen to them the worse most of them sound. Carnival Night 2 and Launch Base 2 get slaughtered by the muffled sound and bad mixing.
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I feel like the simplest explanation is the most apt - they had to use the beta/PC tracks for legal reasons, the PC's versions of the tracks were considered the "most complete," and the new mixes were done based on them. Look at Ice Cap - the PC tracks were the closest to beta, and they got the least touchups, with Act 2 basically just being the beta track.

And again, the muffled audio quality is due to the recording, not the songs themselves.
 
So ... no CRT filters is an odd omission where there's a 4:3 mode, these are Genesis games so it'd be an appropriate option, and Mania had them. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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chocolate_supra said:
What's nutty is they do. Literally Jun Senoue. The only person I'd trust more than Tee with Sonic music. He did the remastering of the proto tracks for Origins.
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Of course, but here we have the them redone with the Genesis sounds and imo Carnival Night doesn't sound too great while Icecap and Launch Base sound just fine.
 
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I don't hate new Ice Cap and Launch Base but they really don't sound like they fit the game.

The new Carnival Night and Super Sonic themes are horrible, though, geez.
VolcanicDynamo said:
I feel like the simplest explanation is the most apt - they had to use the beta/PC tracks for legal reasons, the PC's versions of the tracks were considered the "most complete," and the new mixes were done based on them. Look at Ice Cap - the PC tracks were the closest to beta, and they got the least touchups, with Act 2 basically just being the beta track.

And again, the muffled audio quality is due to the recording, not the songs themselves.
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Considering how bad some companies were at archiving back then I wouldn't be shocked if the PC versions of the tracks were the only ones Sega had to use for Origins.
 
V_ac said:
Considering how bad some companies were at archiving back then I wouldn't be shocked if the PC versions of the tracks were the only ones Sega had to use for Origins.
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I would understand that, but if that was the case, then I am insanely surprised that they managed to make Ice Cap Act 2 1:1 with the beta track. Ice Cap Act 1 is also near identical, just that it now has the same lead instrument as Act 2, a change made by the time of the PC port. Simplest explanation is that they had at least some access to beta assets as a reference. And if they didn't, well, the betas have been widely documented. I still feel like them making the tracks more like the PC version was a design decision. Not malice or ignorance or incompetence.

The Super Sonic theme, though, I got nothing for. It's just a bad, ill-fitting track.
 
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They also have Naofumi Hataya, though based on his Classic Sonic tracks in Forces........
 
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I'm at a loss at the treatment of Carnival Night especially; it is TERRIBLE. Ice Cap made it out the best of the bunch just by being the closest to the proto tracks.

What gets me though is that they did rip one track directly from the proto, repurposed for the New Blue Spheres Mode.



 
MondoMega said:
I'm at a loss at the treatment of Carnival Night especially; it is TERRIBLE. Ice Cap made it out the best of the bunch just by being the closest to the proto tracks.

What gets me though is that they did rip one track directly from the proto, repurposed for the New Blue Spheres Mode.



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You've heard me say it already, but Ice Cap 2 is also from the proto, so it's only further proof that Sega had the proto assets but deliberately decided to make the tracks closer to the PC version on purpose.

It's nice to see this track repurposed in a fun way, though!
 
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I saw some discussion about the Barrel of Doom not being altered in any way, and my initial thought was "well it's pretty well documented online how that works, so while it might be frustrating at first, it's easy to look up what to do."

But then I remembered I used to have a strategy guide for Sonic 3 that didn't mention how the barrel works at all, which is kind of wild to me. It gave me so much trouble as a kid and the strategy guide was absolutely useless, lmao.
 
KilgoreWolfe said:
I saw some discussion about the Barrel of Doom not being altered in any way, and my initial thought was "well it's pretty well documented online how that works, so while it might be frustrating at first, it's easy to look up what to do."

But then I remembered I used to have a strategy guide for Sonic 3 that didn't mention how the barrel works at all, which is kind of wild to me. It gave me so much trouble as a kid and the strategy guide was absolutely useless, lmao.
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Yeah I actually called.. called on a telephone, the Sega hotline to get help on that one as a kid. I had been stuck on it for so long, had replayed the game up to that point so many times, that honestly Ice Cap and Launch Base still feel weird to me. I had played the Zones up to that point so much that the two Zones after felt really unfamiliar and felt like they weren't part of the same game.
Brains are weird.
And so is that fucking barrel.
 
chocolate_supra said:
Yeah I actually called.. called on a telephone, the Sega hotline to get help on that one as a kid. I had been stuck on it for so long, had replayed the game up to that point so many times, that honestly Ice Cap and Launch Base still feel weird to me. I had played the Zones up to that point so much that the two Zones after felt really unfamiliar and felt like they weren't part of the same game.
Brains are weird.
And so is that fucking barrel.
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I would have been way too scared to actually call someone on a phone over something like that as a kid, so hats off to kid you for doing that, haha.
 
KilgoreWolfe said:
I would have been way too scared to actually call someone on a phone over something like that as a kid, so hats off to kid you for doing that, haha.
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Thank you! LOL I was actually very nervous talking to anyone as a kid, but the idea that I could call a person to talk about a video game fascinated me, so I was down for that.
 
KilgoreWolfe said:
I saw some discussion about the Barrel of Doom not being altered in any way, and my initial thought was "well it's pretty well documented online how that works, so while it might be frustrating at first, it's easy to look up what to do."
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Well they'd be wrong because it is altered. Now your character looks up and down when pressing up and down on the barrel, which is an actual visual indicator that doing that is doing something. Originally they just stood perfectly still on the barrels, of course.

Helps show off the enhanced Super Sonic sprite set too; now fully complete with unique sprites for all actions.

 
MondoMega said:
Helps show off the enhanced Super Sonic sprite set too; now fully complete with unique sprites for all actions.

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This is genuinely a massive deal for me, holy shit. I had no idea they'd do that. This has bugged me since I was like ten.
 
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The Ending theme in Sonic 3 is also a direct rip of the proto track for the record.





I'm not sure why the zone themes were so butchered in comparison to this and the New Blue Spheres menu, which came over perfectly fine. Really hope they consider just patching in the proto versions later.
 
I hadn't posted it yet, but the Competition menu theme is also the same as the proto (and good thing too, this track rocks).





So the breakdown on new / altered music is:
  • Carnival Night Act 1 - new arrangement
  • Carnival Night Act 2 - new arrangement
  • Ice Cap Act 1 - prototype rip (somewhat adjusted)
  • Ice Cap Act 2 - prototype rip (pretty much the same)
  • Launch Base Act 1 - new arrangement
  • Launch Base Act 2 - new arrangement
  • Super Sonic Theme - brand new theme
  • Ending Theme - prototype rip (the same)
  • Competition Menu Theme - prototype rip (the same)
  • Unknown Theme - prototype rip (the same; repurposed for New Blue Spheres mode)
Really makes me wonder what happened to Carnival Night and Launch Base, most of the other tracks turned out fine.
 
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MondoMega said:
I hadn't posted it yet, but the Competition menu theme is also the same as the proto (and good thing too, this track rocks).





So the breakdown on new / altered music is:
  • Carnival Night Act 1 - new arrangement
  • Carnival Night Act 2 - new arrangement
  • Ice Cap Act 1 - prototype rip (somewhat adjusted)
  • Ice Cap Act 2 - prototype rip (pretty much the same)
  • Launch Base Act 1 - new arrangement
  • Launch Base Act 2 - new arrangement
  • Super Sonic Theme - brand new theme
  • Ending Theme - prototype rip (the same)
  • Competition Menu Theme - prototype rip (the same)
  • Unkown Theme - prototype rip (the same; repurposed for New Blue Spheres mode)
Really makes me wonder what happened to Carnival Night and Launch Base, most of the other tracks turned out fine.
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My hypothesis from this morning is the same now that we've heard all of the tracks and I've compared them to the PC counterparts. All of the changes to the tracks in Origins were seemingly done to make them closer to the PC version's tracks when applicable. The unchanged tracks have PC renditions that are very close to the prototype tracks, so no changes are made. Meanwhile Carnival Night and Launch Base on PC have significant differences from the prototype, changing in either key or tempo, and are altered accordingly in Origins to match those changes. Ice Cap's one major change, making Act 1 and Act 2 have the same lead instrument, is also consistent with the PC version, which otherwise sticks closely to the prototype. Everything seems to suggest that this was a deliberate design decision, and until evidence to the contrary emerges, that's the theory I'm going with.

At this point, the only mystery I see is the new Super Sonic theme, which seems thrown in there for the sake of having a new Super Sonic theme but doesn't match the stylistic tone and structure of Sonic 3K - even the new Carnival Night and Launch Base renditions make an attempt.
 
MondoMega said:
Well they'd be wrong because it is altered. Now your character looks up and down when pressing up and down on the barrel, which is an actual visual indicator that doing that is doing something. Originally they just stood perfectly still on the barrels, of course.

Helps show off the enhanced Super Sonic sprite set too; now fully complete with unique sprites for all actions.

Click to expand...

This is genuinely really cool, and makes me sad they made such bizarre choices with the music, because music discourse is kind of overshadowing neat things like this.
 
Barely Able said:
Was this also a 900 number? Did you get parental permission before calling!?!?
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Nope, San Fran number:
page4-360px-Sonic3_MD_US_manual.pdf.jpg


But yes, I did get parental permission. 🤣
 
Are there plans for an ST for this game, maybe converting this thread to an ST or making a new thread? Or will discussion just continue here? I know Fire Emblem Warriors is the big game of the week, lol.
 
Has anyone seen any Switch Impressions?

I’m keen, as 3 and Knuckles is probably my favourite ever game, but after the recent PAC-Man lag issues I’m not diving in until I know for sure it’s good!
 
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