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Discussion Socialism Discussion Thread

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toxic user said:
That's probably the most incredible dishonestly cut-off quote I've ever seen in my life, it's almost comical. Shelter is a human right, living in a city isn't. Clearly, this is true and I'm absolutely confident you agree with it. And if you don't, I'm pretty sure I can convince you that people in rural areas (or less competitive towns) aren't having their human rights violated. Obviously, living in a city is very desirable for economic and cultural reasons and if you grew up there, being priced out can have devastating effects on your quality of life. I don't dispute any of this. It's just that none of this rises to the level of a human rights violation or even close.
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Okay, landlord.


How should housing and rents prices be determined in your opinion? Landlords have the function to determine the price of a unit. In the economic sense they make the market efficient by finding the equlibrium price (where supply meets demand).
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Okay landlord.

I do believe there should be social housing for those who need it. I was referring to non-subsidized units.
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Okay landlord.
 
toxic user said:
This is unhinged framing. It assumes that I do not support policies to provide equal opportunity for everyone. Why would you even assume that?

By the way, you guys are dogpiling me with economic takes more heterodox than flat earth theories (which I don't mind btw, I enjoy arguing no matter how fringe your positions), yet not a single one of you has addressed my posts point by point, which is something I do mind. All my thoughts are perfectly consistent and transparent, open for everyone to dissect. A full page later and I still don't have the slightest idea how all of you would come up with a system that would provide housing more efficiently than the current one. Not saying the current system is flawless, but you need to demonstrate how other systems would improve on it.
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You're a fucking moron mate, please fuck off.
 
toxic user said:
I am saying that market based solutions are probably better than the alternatives
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You're in a socialism thread, so I think it's incumbent on you to define what you think the alternatives even are if you're saying how things work is better. What, in your mind, are the alternatives?

toxic user said:
it's a supply shortage and little else.
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There is an abundance of empty housing. Landlords are currently sitting on it because of the speculative value of said land. If there is a supply shortage, it's because a few parasites own large swathes of available real estate.

toxic user said:
I grew up in the aftermath of a centrally run economy and I think short of dropping a nuke on my city, you couldn't have left it in a worse state. It took decades to recover. That said, a housing shortage was truthfully not among the issues we faced for a long time. It would be hard to believe anybody would want to move here given the state the city was in after the iron curtain fell.
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Is this to say you grew up in an ex-USSR country? I'm interpreting it as you grew up after the Soviet Union collapsed (in the aftermath) and split into a bunch of capitalist nations. If so, how does the experience of growing up in a capitalist society that was devastated by the Cold War, and the political collapse resulting from losing it, lead you to believe that capitalist solutions are good for anyone else?
 
toxic user said:
This is unhinged framing. It assumes that I do not support policies to provide equal opportunity for everyone. Why would you even assume that?

By the way, you guys are dogpiling me with economic takes more heterodox than flat earth theories (which I don't mind btw, I enjoy arguing no matter how fringe your positions), yet not a single one of you has addressed my posts point by point, which is something I do mind. All my thoughts are perfectly consistent and transparent, open for everyone to dissect. A full page later and I still don't have the slightest idea how all of you would come up with a system that would provide housing more efficiently than the current one. Not saying the current system is flawless, but you need to demonstrate how other systems would improve on it.
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Hey, just gonna tell you something. Capitalism shouldn't exist.

That's it.

That's the discussion!

Have a NOT good day.
 
maestrogeicho said:
And just like that, all capitalism throughout the universe immediately disappeared, for the almighty god Mendinso decided it should not be.

Seriously, I don't what your problem is. I've seen some of your other posts in this thread and you clearly have some kind of extreme superiority complex.

Capitalism clearly has an insane amount of problems, given that people are fucked over by rich people on a daily basis. However; the dismissal of it as a concept entirely is kind of insane. Humans have been trading goods and currency with eachother for millenia, and will probably continue to do so until the earth stops spinning.
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This is the socialism thread
 
maestrogeicho said:
I'm not gonna pretend to know what socialism really is, but it doesn't sound like something that is incompatible with the basic concept of capitalism from what little I know about it. Property will always exist and humans will always be able to trade or sell that property, it's just a basic fact of how life and biology operate on this planet, regardless of what types of societies we create.
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I think it would be a good idea to look into these things first, or at least ask, if you're going to make a post like that. Bartering with chickens in 1000 BC isn't capitalism fwiw
 
maestrogeicho said:
And just like that, all capitalism throughout the universe immediately disappeared, for the almighty god Mendinso decided it should not be.
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Capitalism literally harms me as a disabled person, so honestly, yes.

Seriously, I don't what your problem is. I've seen some of your other posts in this thread and you clearly have some kind of extreme superiority complex.
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Because I'm disabled, poor, and queer, and capitalism literally reeks havoc with my communities as a whole. So I'm obviously going to be outspoken about this.

Capitalism clearly has an insane amount of problems, given that people are fucked over by rich people on a daily basis. However; the dismissal of it as a concept entirely is kind of insane. Humans have been trading goods and currency with eachother for millenia, and will probably continue to do so until the earth stops spinning.
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Capitalism at it's core causes human suffering. It literally should not fucking exist. End of story.

maestrogeicho said:
I'm not gonna pretend to know what socialism really is, but
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So why are you here, then? If all you're here to do is defend capitalists and landlords, you can kindly go away. This is a socialism thread and these type of posts aren't welcome here. Bugger off.
 
maestrogeicho said:
I'm not gonna pretend to know what socialism really is, but it doesn't sound like something that is incompatible with the basic concept of capitalism from what little I know about it. Property will always exist and humans will always be able to trade or sell that property, it's just a basic fact of how life and biology operate on this planet, regardless of what types of societies we create.
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There's a difference between personal property and private properties.
The commies don't care if you own all of the Switch Special edition consoles, but will defnitely dislike if you own 10 houses for the purpose of extorting rent out of people.
 
maestrogeicho said:
I'm not gonna pretend to know what socialism really is, but it doesn't sound like something that is incompatible with the basic concept of capitalism from what little I know about it. Property will always exist and humans will always be able to trade or sell that property, it's just a basic fact of how life and biology operate on this planet, regardless of what types of societies we create.
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If you're willing to do some reading, I'm sure at least one of us here would be willing to explain or share articles explaining what socialism is but the short answer is that socialism and capitalism can't coexist in the same economy and that private and personal property are not the same thing.
 
Telling minorities that they should chill, what could go wrong
 
[edited because I regret not being able to stay calm in a political thread, please don't reply]
 
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maestrogeicho said:
I'm very sorry to hear that. As someone who has also been fucked over by capitalism on numerous occasions(although who hasn't), I can emphasize with that.


Again; I understand and am sorry for your troubles, but what alternatives would you recommend? As far as I know, every type of society that has ever existed massively fucks its citizens over. I really don't know of any capitalist, monarchist, or socialist societies that ever experienced true equality and peace, as far as I know.

I would argue that human evil will prevail regardless of what kind of society we live in. There are good people from capitalism-based societies, and bad people. There are good people from socialism-based societies, and bad people. This is just an objective fact that won't be fixed until a meteor comes and mercifully wipes out the human race.


Who do you think you are? I'm not here to defend capitalists or landlords(especially since I had a particularly negative experience with more than one landlord and capitalist myself). Surely people with alternate views are welcome on a public forum, as long as they act respectfully. All I know is I came in here seeing people like you acting elitist and throwing labels around because of a disagreement in opinion.

I understand why you feel angry, but you really aren't coming off as a very pleasant person. It might be a lot more helpful to get your point across and work towards real change if you just use a little empathy and kindness.
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"Someone got thread banned for being an asshole, now its my turn to be the asshole."
 
maestrogeicho said:
I don't know who this other person that got banned is. I'm just trying to get my point across, while also rightfully calling out the elitist name calling and blatant dismissal of all opposing viewpoints that mendinso has been engaging in. I'm sorry if I came across the wrong way.
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[edited because I regret not being able to stay calm in a political thread, please don't reply]
 
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I'm just putting them on ignore and moving on with my day. Not worth arguing over some capitalism defender.
 
maestrogeicho said:
Capitalism clearly has an insane amount of problems, given that people are fucked over by rich people on a daily basis. However; the dismissal of it as a concept entirely is kind of insane. Humans have been trading goods and currency with eachother for millenia, and will probably continue to do so until the earth stops spinning.
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Capitalism =/= trade, or even the concept of markets. Capitalism is the privatization of productive resources which started with the process of enclosure. Enclosure was the theft of the common lands by the bourgeois. It's how we got from commons to "private" property.

maestrogeicho said:
I absolutely never would defend any of the evil that may come from capitalism, socialism, or anything else.
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Can you tell me about some of the evils of socialism?
 
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Even if capitalism and socialism could theoretically co-exist, capitalism would never allow it. Capitalism always resorts to fascism to protect itself. I don't know how you can look at the last two decades and not see that.
 
maestrogeicho said:
[edited because I regret not being able to stay calm in a political thread, please don't reply]
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No, I think I will reply. You can cover up what you said all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that you said it.

"I understand why you feel angry, but you really aren't coming off as a very pleasant person. It might be a lot more helpful to get your point across and work towards real change if you just use a little empathy and kindness."

You regretted not staying calm, but you DON'T regret telling a bunch of minorities that they should treat oppressors with kindness. As if their anger isn't justified, as if they won't simply be pushed aside and trampled on again for their troubles. Did you ever think that this has already been done? Did you ever think that one reason many feel angry is because of the failure of this naive approach?

You might as well tell us to smile more next! I'll use myself as an example here; do you think my rights were given to me by treating people who dehumanize us kindly? They were won by queers who started throwing bricks at cops! You gain nothing by being kind to those who only want you to suffer.
 
Raccoon said:
might be an unpopular opinion but I think that misanthropists are incredibly harmful to political discourse
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Unfortunately I would argue misanthropy is a critical component of keeping capitalism afloat. It sells us the lie that human beings are naturally greedy and destructive, so no point fighting our base instincts, just look after yourself and don’t try to make the world a better place. This trickles down to discussion about crime and policing, and the refusal to imagine an alternative, among other things.

Also loving your fellow human is cool and good imo
 
Deleted member 1615 said:
How do landlords hurt the society? Suppose we handed the all housing over to the government. Next what? The state will likely not know the equilibrium price of a unit (a landlord does - it's the maximum amount the highest bidder is willing to pay for this particular unit). So if a state underprices a unit, you have 300 people standing in line. How is that an improvement? Do you roll a dice as to who gets it? Suppose I worked hard all my life - do you think I should not have access to this rental unit moreso than someone who's been slacking off all their live? Again under the assumption that living in a city is a luxury.

Why not just build social housing sufficient for the amount of required low skilled workers, and build as much as possible in general to apply downward pressure on the market? I don't find your approach particularly actionable or effective. If there is a huge demand and low supply of housing in a city, remove the hurdles for real estate companies to build. Clearly, they want to build because there's unmet demand and therefore unrealized profits.
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I don't wanna be rude but I really had to laugh out loud when I read this. Not sure if the poster was serious, but this is literally the reality we live in: hundreds of people will queue around the block to view one extremely overpriced apartment :D

It is not even private landlords -as in a person owning one apartment or even one house anymore. It's some investment funds from abroad owning huge chunks of a city. People that will NEVER set foot in the buildings they own. Hiring dozens of subcontractor companies which use all legal and semi-legal loopholes to increase prices wherever they can to squeeze out every last dime out of the people that still can afford those places.

And the best of all? due to their smart subcontractor scheming and the mother company being registered in the Bahamas, Kuwait or elsewhere they don't even pay any taxes. How the hell is this a working system? It's disgusting and completely dehumanized and dehumanizing.

I feel often people that are defensive to renter protection think of the "one good guy landlord" who struggles to keep a building intact and to meet ends meet.
More often than not these people are not the issue. that is still a human being you're dealing with. As opposed to a construct of international investment companies that is so removed from the people that live in those buildings they own that any human sentiment is completely removed from the equation and the only goal is to maximize profits. If people still can't see any issue with that in 2023 then I don't know.

The one thing I do agree with the poster is that we do need to build more and especially social housing. That is where governments are indeed failing.

Deleted member 1615 said:
This is unhinged framing. It assumes that I do not support policies to provide equal opportunity for everyone. Why would you even assume that?

By the way, you guys are dogpiling me with economic takes more heterodox than flat earth theories (which I don't mind btw, I enjoy arguing no matter how fringe your positions), yet not a single one of you has addressed my posts point by point, which is something I do mind. All my thoughts are perfectly consistent and transparent, open for everyone to dissect. A full page later and I still don't have the slightest idea how all of you would come up with a system that would provide housing more efficiently than the current one. Not saying the current system is flawless, but you need to demonstrate how other systems would improve on it.
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We don't have to come up with this system. This system was the reality before unhinged and rampant capitalism completely fucked it up. Investment companies and hedge funds should not be controlling large parts of local rental markets. There should be price caps on rents and much stronger renter protection. Apartments and houses should not be allowed to be kept empty for "financial investment" purposes in heated and crowded markets. No turning places into AirBnB or "furnished long term rentals" to maximize profits. And yes, build more socially affordable housing units. Demand that whenever private companies DO build, that at least a certain share is reserved for social housing and prevent them from only building unaffordable luxury condos.
 
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Mendinso said:
Oh wow, uh, Toxic User deleted their account...

EDIT: Before I forget, thank you to the mods for being as swift as they are in this thread regarding the two users in here. Appreciate it a lot.
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Im always amazed at people who come into this thread with some gotcha in mind. It’s like, why would you join a longrunning discussion where you disagree with the very principle of the thread and everyone in it but have some views on how wrong they are about the injustice they observe and experience. Thanks to everyone who challenges and reports this stuff.

(Not taking any credit here- as I was in the thread I didn’t take part in the first mod action and was asleep for the second!)
 
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Monster Mash said:
Y'all scared them off. Now I'm never going to get to learn about the evils of socialism =/

Really wanted to see if we'd get a Black Book of Communism post
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Surprised no one has been here quoting that victims of communism twitter account tbh
 
PixelKnight said:
Im always amazed at people who come into this thread with some gotcha in mind. It’s like, why would you join a longrunning discussion where you disagree with the very principle of the thread and everyone in it but have some views on how wrong they are about the injustice they observe and experience.
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Yeah, this is the part that is just wild to me more than anything. Especially them talking down on minorities and the disabled affected by said things.
 
I wouldn't mind it if they'd at least not bring weak shit. If you're gonna come into a socialism thread and tell all the socialists that socialism sucks, at least don't be the most boring vanilla capitalist defender on the internet. I want to see some TAKES
 
Hi!

I don't ever post here, but I shared an image with some Fami and thought, "Hey, you know who would enjoy this? The Socialism Discussion Thread."

Context: This is an email from the leasing company I endured during the pandemic. This was riiiiight after everything locked down.

eCnezjB.jpg


Enjoy.
 
ngpdrew said:
Hi!

I don't ever post here, but I shared an image with some Fami and thought, "Hey, you know who would enjoy this? The Socialism Discussion Thread."

Context: This is an email from the leasing company I endured during the pandemic. This was riiiiight after everything locked down.

eCnezjB.jpg


Enjoy.
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Dear lord, that reminds of when you see social media threads of the most thoughtless, heartless memos and texts from bosses. ’Fun Rent Jelly Bean Contest’ indeed. The subtext that those who can’t make their rent don’t get to enter the FRJBC, as if that’s their biggest problem, I mean bloody hell.
 
Finally, an excuse to post this.

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(hopefully this isn't too big; I had to resize it)

Okay, carry on.
 
ngpdrew said:
Hi!

I don't ever post here, but I shared an image with some Fami and thought, "Hey, you know who would enjoy this? The Socialism Discussion Thread."

Context: This is an email from the leasing company I endured during the pandemic. This was riiiiight after everything locked down.

eCnezjB.jpg


Enjoy
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Mao was a complicated man. A man who, for sure, had flaws. However,
 
God, I started up replaying Breath of Fire II (haven't played it since the GBA days when I was a kid) and it feels appropriate that I'd encounter a crappy Landlord:

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Y'all recommend some reading if I felt nourished by The Conquest of Bread? I know Kropotkin's an anarchist but we're part of the same fmily
 
Jimmy Joe said:
Y'all recommend some reading if I felt nourished by The Conquest of Bread? I know Kropotkin's an anarchist but we're part of the same fmily
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Are you looking for anarchist texts specifically or socialist/leftist text in general?

Communist Manifesto is very short and can be read in one sitting.
 
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