finally, a new Magical Starsign!
Nintendo might be gearing up their support studios to be somewhat more autonomous. NST handling Bowser's Fury under EPD's supervision was a big glow up. might be 1up's turn
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StarTopic Nintendo First Party Software Development |ST| Nintendo Party Superstars
- Thread starter astrogamer
- Start date
Nintendo might be gearing up their support studios to be somewhat more autonomous. NST handling Bowser's Fury under EPD's supervision was a big glow up. might be 1up's turn
- Pronouns
- She/They
Gust, or Koei Tecmo in general, are not credited.
Key Staff:
Directors - Tsutomu Tei, Kenta Nakanishi
Producers - Masahiro Higuchi, Genki Yokota, Toyokazu Nonaka
Sub-Producer - Kouhei Maeda
Main Character Designer - Mika Pikazo
Concept Artist - Kazuma Koda
Scenario Director - Nami Komuro
Planning Director - Yuya Ishii
Art Director - Takafumi Teraoka
Programming Director - Susumu Ishihara
Sound Director and Lead Composer - Yasuhisa Baba
Toshiyuki Kusakihara is only credited under special thanks; likely working on the FE4 Remake. Takeru Kanazaki and Hiroki Morishita are credited as composers, but the latter is no longer in the Sound Director / Lead Composer role.
SirArthur
Kremling
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Interesting that Tsutomu is one of the directors. I know he was mostly a graphics designer (he worked on map design for RD), cool that they gave him the role.
- Pronouns
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Credited:
Ryuichiro Kouguchi (Game Planner)
Shiori Minari (Game Planner)
Takafumi Teraoka (Art Director / Character Animation)
Tsutomu Tei (Director)
Makoto Onogi (Character Art Lead)
Hidemi Yamaguchi (Game Planner)
Kuniyoshi Tanaka (Game Planner)
Absent:
Naohiro Yasuhara
Misuzu Yoshida
Tomohiro Tabata
Tomohiro Ozawa
Koichiro Yamada
Toshitaka Muramatsu
DunningSmith
Boo
This is interesting, thanks for sharing. I'm going to elaborate after beating the game, but...very interesting.
Marce-chan
Magical Girls <3
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- They/Them
Sorry to ask but all of the key staff is from Intelligent Systems?
LuckyNumber69
6.9 out of 10
As someone who's a big VG music nerd, and a big fan of FE's music, I find it super cool and interesting that Yasuhisa Baba finally got to be music director for an FE game! I'm curious if Takeru Kanazaki is the music director for the rumored remake, given he was for Shadows of Valentia. Only thing I'm disappointed in is the fact that it seems like Rei Kondoh didn't work on this game after working on the past three mainline non-remake games in a row. Maybe he's working on FE4R?
Also curious about the lack of Gust and Koei Tecmo. Are they just uncredited, or did they legit not have anything to do with this game after all??
Also curious about the lack of Gust and Koei Tecmo. Are they just uncredited, or did they legit not have anything to do with this game after all??
DunningSmith
Boo
Pretty much. The only one I don't know is Yuya Ishii (Planning Director).
Also, did Hitoshi Yamagami leave Nintendo? Haven't seen him as a producer in quite some time.
Clov
An ethernet cable girlfriend
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In the end, I'm not that surprised that Gust isn't involved. The idea always struck me as strange.
I hope that FE4 remake actually does happen, though! Would be great if there isn't a long wait after Engage for the next one.
- Pronouns
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He has a Special Thanks credit for what its worth.
Another Special Thanks credit for Yamagami after BOND, Xenoblade 3 and Bayonetta 3. Getting the feeling he left Nintendo during the production of these games at this point.
DunningSmith
Boo
The last time he was credited as producer was Pokémon Mystery Dungeon DX in 2020.
Kinda sad that he apparently left, I remember seeing him in the credits as far as I can remember.
N75
Like Like
Thanks. Do you know if Kazuyoshi Toriyama or Tatsuya Kikkawa were also involved? The former being missing could mean that he‘s working with Kusakihara. Kikkawa I think was last credited in Strechmo, so with Mizusu Yoshida being absent and Taku Sugioka only being involved with system support for WarioWare, I’m curious.
N75
Like Like
So we potentially have:
- Fire Emblem Heroes - Kouhei Maeda
- Fire Emblem Engage Expasion Pass - Tsutomu Tei
- Paper Mario title - Masahiko Nagaya / Naohiko Aoyama
- WarioWare title - Goro Abe (EPD) / Yu Yamanaka
- Fire Emblem remake? - Toshiyuki Kusakihara (possible Koei Tecmo collaboration?)
- Unknown title? - Staff such as Naohiro Yasuhara and Mizusu Yoshida still uncredited since 2017, unless they’ve left
- Ryota Kawade project? - may not be a video game
They did work on Zelda: Tri-Force Heroes. Maybe they become the new 2D Zelda studio if Grezzo is unavailable. It would make sense seeing as how 1-UP was formerly Brownie Brown, which was comprised of people who worked on the Seiken Densetsu series.
Is anybody else thinking that EPD is slowly consolidating all of its external development under Group 2? In the last few Ask the Developer interviews, the Nintendo Producers/Directors for both the Kirby and Xenoblade series, including Genki Yokota now work at PDG No. 2, rather than Group 1 like in the past. Toyokazu Nonoka and other Group 2 staff seem to have taken over those traditionally EPD Group 1 controlled franchises, along with Pokemon and Fire Emblem.
Could it be that EPD trying to turn Group 2 into its own "XDev"? Having one studio dedicated entirely to external development projects while the rest of EPD, including studios that have traditionally focused on external development like Group 1, slowly transition over to internal creations or hybrid models like Metroid Dread? That would help streamline things, moving all the external stuff under one team while freeing up resources for more internal development could be a benefit for Nintendo's goals to expand its development pipeline. I think it was kind of overkill for Nintendo (and Sony for that matter) to have like 4 or 5 "external production" teams. You only really need one group for that purpose.
It also brings into question what EPD Group 1 has been working on this whole time since 2019. If they're not making Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, and Pokemon anymore... What are they making?
Could it be that EPD trying to turn Group 2 into its own "XDev"? Having one studio dedicated entirely to external development projects while the rest of EPD, including studios that have traditionally focused on external development like Group 1, slowly transition over to internal creations or hybrid models like Metroid Dread? That would help streamline things, moving all the external stuff under one team while freeing up resources for more internal development could be a benefit for Nintendo's goals to expand its development pipeline. I think it was kind of overkill for Nintendo (and Sony for that matter) to have like 4 or 5 "external production" teams. You only really need one group for that purpose.
It also brings into question what EPD Group 1 has been working on this whole time since 2019. If they're not making Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, and Pokemon anymore... What are they making?
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ItWasMeantToBe19
Darknut
Even though Mario Maker 2 sold badly, I'm hoping the next EPD 10 game is Mario Maker 3 and EPD 8 is doing a reboot non-user generated content 2D Mario.
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Dark Cloud
Warpstar Knight
Can you not do this kind of hyperbole talk here?
ItWasMeantToBe19
Darknut
It's one of my ten favorite games ever made and I want it to continue, but a Mario platformer selling 10m on Switch is pretty meh at best.
Hopefully Nintendo disagrees!
nakuto
Piranha Plant
I understood that the core JRPG people from former Brownie Brown went to form a new company called Brownies, who released Egglia Rebirth on Switch early last year.
TheMoon
(not a sphere)
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I just so desperately want NCL to release an EPD Group overview like at least every five years or so. The on-going confusion about these groups is maddening
also, idk if y'all talked about this already but Engage now seems to double triple extra confirm it:
Yamagami's No. 1 Gunner Genki Yokota seemingly has fully ascended to Producer Land now with doing double duty on Xenoblade 3 (NCL director and producer), producer on Bayo3 (directly taking over Yamagami's old role) and also producer on Engage (previously the NCL director on the series).
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It make you wonder who took over Group 1 if Yamagami is gone. Probably Kaori Ando. I think Group 1's next game is probably going to be a fully internal project that we'll likely see this year or next.
kvetcha
hoopy frood
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I think Nintendo’s probably not mad about making half a billion dollars off an iterative sequel.
boodream
Paratroopa
The content offered by Mario Maker 2 at this point is so complete that I don't see what else a sequel could bring. As far as sales are concerned, I wouldn't say it sold that badly, especially considering that it is in direct competition with NSMBU deluxe which is an evergreen and which, sadly in my opinion, sold better than 3D World+Bowser Fury. I think an interesting solution could be to merge Mario Maker with 2D Mario. That is, basically replacing the story mode of Mario Maker with a new full 2D Mario game. With this amount of content, the absence of a new 2D Mario for 10 years and the hype generated by the movie, I think such a game could be a great success, certainly exceeding the combined sales of Mario Maker 2 and NSMBU deluxe.
I completely understand the desire to see Koizumi's team also take care of 2D Mario. After all, EPD Tokyo is THE group that deals with Super Mario. The possibilities would be exciting. On the other hand, I have mixed feelings about this, because I feel that they would have more creative freedom to reinvent DK, which is also a historical license that deserves to be brought back. Plus, it seems that Tezuka is the producer of 2D Mario and he has a huge legitimacy. With Yoshi, I think that these are the only games under his supervision at the moment. And EPD 10 is also quite capable of bringing in new talent internally, in my opinion.
I hadn't thought of that, that's a good point. To be honest, I think Grezzo really deserves to create a new 2D Zelda, but if they are busy with one of their own projects, I too hope that Nintendo will find a way to continue producing 2D Zelda games. However, if EPD Tokyo is indeed now made up of two development teams, then 1-UP might as well help them with two different projects, maybe one 2D and one 3D?
About EPD Tokyo, I read here that they were abandoning their own game engine (shared in part with Zelda, if I'm not mistaken?) to switch to LunchPack. Any ideas on what might be behind such a decision? I feel like their current technology was very good, including in an open world experiment like BF. I'd be interested to know what this change would do for them, knowing that their technology was already shared within EPD. Maybe the evolution of the Zelda franchise is leading to different technological needs, but I find it hard not to imagine open world as the future of 3D Mario as well.
LukasManak22
who the fuck is that
This is a great idea on paper and it could work technically. But the game would need to have constant updates, something like Splatoon 2/3. The support of Maker 2 ended not even a year since it was released and the last update made the level world tool (something that could have been there from the start). But yeah, I agree I have no idea what could Maker 3 bring to the table, but again you have to think outside the box and I don't really think they will go into 3D route, that's not that simple. Anyway, we will not get another Maker game for quite some time.
boodream
Paratroopa
As far as 2D Mario's creative renewal is concerned, I really think they are capable of surprising us in a positive way, with young in-house talent, not to mention the hires they have made. No one expected something like Splatoon, and I'm really looking forward to seeing EPD 10 have a great crative "revival" by following a similar process.
The problem with updates to a hypothetical future Mario Maker is, as you say, that I have trouble seeing what content they might add.
The problem with updates to a hypothetical future Mario Maker is, as you say, that I have trouble seeing what content they might add.
TheMoon
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but that is the tragic thing that nearly everyone always ignores: Super Mario Maker 2's "story mode" is a "new full 2D Mario game". Has been since the completely unfairly trashed and dismissed SMM 3DS which had a full top-tier 2D Mario game inside it, full of cool levels with a unique extra challenge layer but all everyone saw was "lol it doesn't have online sharing". Like, y'all don't make levels anyhow. Same thing happened to SMM2 - an even better, even more fleshed out story campaign with an actual world map even and characters you talk to and all you hear is "lol they stopped supporting with new content" and when you mention them in any 2D Mario discussion you end up with the old Nintendo fan-favorite "doesn't count because it's not a REAL [insert franchise] game". The levels in the first SMM were quite lackluster and basic, I get that. And I get that this colored people's impression of the "story mode in SMM". But we've had them merge ace 2D Mario level content with the Maker platform already for two entries.
People will say "the last 2D Mario game was NSMBU/NSLU but we've had two sick 2D Marios since then that barely anyone touched, comparatively. And it's just a damn shame.
This is in part why I don't think Mario Maker as a series has a future (at least with any kind of regularity). The first one was lightning in a bottle, the second one more refined and expanded with a much stronger single player campaign but where do you go with this. People see "Maker" and think the only way to get joy out of this is to "make" things when they just wanna play levels mostly. So do you turn the "Maker-player" into a platform? That feels "un-Nintendo-like" but could be a cool scenario where it's maintained and expanded every time a new Mario comes out with select elements and you can access the "Maker-player" from any future Mario game. Do you turn Maker into a mode in what is branded as Actually New Again Super Mario Bros.? 3D Mario Maker is not the way as 2D is already too much for many and they don't want to make something even more niche than a 2D level editor (nevermind how obvious it was that they'd never make an other-IP Maker).
Or do you just put it on the shelf for like a decade and a half until there's enough new material to feed into a Super Mario Maker 3 to start again when the salt has been washed out of people's ears over the "bad support" complaints of SMM2 (there's so much stuff in the game already and with the post-launch support they did bit, it's just understandably frustrating if the menu clearly has a blank spot for a new art style that then never got filled in lol).
In short, I don't think we'll see Mario Maker again for quite a while, either as a standalone thing or a feature/mode in another game. (Cut to Mario Maker Mode in the Mario Movie tie-in game later this year lol).
boodream
Paratroopa
I agree with you. That's why I'm thinking mainly about marketing. The Mario Maker games are already full of high-quality single-player content, that's absolutely true. But the target audience doesn't know this enough, they think of Mario Maker as a level editor, and they know much more clearly what they will get with NSMBU.
Hence the idea of releasing only one game instead of two, which would combine both the marketing appeal of 2D Mario and the depth of content of Mario Maker.
Hence the idea of releasing only one game instead of two, which would combine both the marketing appeal of 2D Mario and the depth of content of Mario Maker.
Dcubed
Paratroopa
Isn't that how it used to be under the older EAD/SPD model? SPD2 (Or whatever was Takashi Tezuka's team) was basically XDev anyway.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Darknut
There's plenty of stuff that Mario Maker 3 could include
1. Full SMB2 level creator with enemies and obstacles from SMB2
2. Full Link level creator with enemies and obstacles from Zelda
3. Better search tools for Super Worlds
4. Support for third-party tablets for level designing
5. Rollback netcode or any netcode that makes the multiplayer functional
6. More competitive multiplayer modes (if the netcode was functional)
And that's before mentioning Yoshi's Island levels or just more stuff to add from 3D World, 3, and World
1. Full SMB2 level creator with enemies and obstacles from SMB2
2. Full Link level creator with enemies and obstacles from Zelda
3. Better search tools for Super Worlds
4. Support for third-party tablets for level designing
5. Rollback netcode or any netcode that makes the multiplayer functional
6. More competitive multiplayer modes (if the netcode was functional)
And that's before mentioning Yoshi's Island levels or just more stuff to add from 3D World, 3, and World
sanstea
Like Like
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Obviously you can add always more to any game and the idea is even more obvious in the game creation genre. How much do these additonal additions matter to the average player, though? Game creation video games have a huge diminishing returns issue when it comes to the enjoyment of the mainstream audience as you increase their complexity.
Once a huge majority of the player base only views content instead of creating (as tools, options and possibilities become too overwhelming for the average consumer), one begs the question why just not make a focus group-tested, polished, conservative single- or multiplayer game from these tools that will obviously serve, please and appeal to a mainstream audience that just views the content way more.
As a F2P live service Mario Maker can sort of survive but not as a regularily iteraded franchise with $60 releases each.
Once a huge majority of the player base only views content instead of creating (as tools, options and possibilities become too overwhelming for the average consumer), one begs the question why just not make a focus group-tested, polished, conservative single- or multiplayer game from these tools that will obviously serve, please and appeal to a mainstream audience that just views the content way more.
As a F2P live service Mario Maker can sort of survive but not as a regularily iteraded franchise with $60 releases each.
boodream
Paratroopa
Everything you mention here sounds great and makes me personally excited, but I don't know if it would be seen as enough value added for most people compared to Mario Maker 2. You mentioned sales, I don't know if these new features, which would make me buy Mario Maker 3 immediately, would really sell to the general public. To be honest, I'm not sure of it at all. And to be honest, all the things you list should have been included/added to Mario Maker 2 in my opinion.
Unfortunately, as a F2P live service, I don't see the point of Nintendo doing this. Especially if it competes head-on with their 2D Mario entries, which in my opinion still have a lot of commercial potential. I'm repeating myself, but for something that the general consensus is disappointing, and already was on Wii U, Deluxe sales are substantial.
N75
Like Like
It's following the EPD 2 model now where certain games/series have certain producers. Kirby has Kei Ninomiya, Pokemon has Akira Kinashi (who otherwise is just credited for Project Management now), Platinum has Makoto Okazaki.
Kaori Ando was last credited in Bowser's Fury in an unknown capacity, so who knows what's going on there.
TheMoon
(not a sphere)
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we had the credits here earlier but at least today we get our regular confirmation that EPD2 is still EPD2 lol
Ask the Developer Vol. 8, Fire Emblem Engage – Chapter 1
Motivating players to give Fire Emblem a try
www.nintendo.co.uk
Ask the Developer Vol. 8, Fire Emblem Engage—Part 1 - News - Nintendo Official Site
Content pre-recorded in accordance with current COVID-19 health and safety guidelines. This article has been translated from the original Japanese content. The images shown in text were created during development. In this eighth volume of Ask the De…
www.nintendo.com
ItWasMeantToBe19
Darknut
While I don't think Mario Maker 3 is super likely, I do think a Mario Maker 3 with much more multiplayer focus (in terms of modes and premade multiplayer levels from Nintendo) and with functional netcode could be a huge success.
Mario Maker 2's online was very popular for a minute until people couldn't stand the horrible netcode and the various silly flaws in the multiplayer that could be addressed in the sequel.
If Nintendo made like 50 multiplayer focused levels and everything ran well, I could see it breaking out. Maybe add a Mario 35 mode as well or a Mario Vs mode etc.
Now, how plausible is it to have 2D Mario with player interaction without significant lag? Ehhhhhhhh. These are extremely complex interactions for a game that requires to the frame precision so... It would be hard, yes.
Mario Maker 2's online was very popular for a minute until people couldn't stand the horrible netcode and the various silly flaws in the multiplayer that could be addressed in the sequel.
If Nintendo made like 50 multiplayer focused levels and everything ran well, I could see it breaking out. Maybe add a Mario 35 mode as well or a Mario Vs mode etc.
Now, how plausible is it to have 2D Mario with player interaction without significant lag? Ehhhhhhhh. These are extremely complex interactions for a game that requires to the frame precision so... It would be hard, yes.
IIRC, members of 1-Up Studio left for for Brownies. It went Brownie Brown -> 1-Up. At that point some left 1-Up to form Brownies as 1-Up was to be more of an assist studio for EPD.
SPD Group 2 handled external development from Japanese developers. Primarily of the mature/JRPG/Puzzle variety. SPD teams back then focused on specific genres and niches they were good at. Group 1 was niche and weird games, Group 2 was RPGs and mature titles, Group 3 was western games, Group 4 was party games and more kid-friendly RPGs.
Lately though, EPD has been bringing more of its external development under Production Group No. 2 (Toyokazu Nonoka's studio). Many of Nintendo's more recent, western games, and Fire Emblem/Xenoblade/Pokemon titles have been produced by Nonoka, and staff that originally worked at Group 1 like Genki Yokota, now work under Group 2. The only exceptions are games who's core design are generated internally at EPD then fleshed out by an external source (WarioWare and Metroid Dread) or games that were sequels to SPD Group 3 titles (Luigi's Mansion, Paper Mario, Metroid Prime).
That makes me think Nintendo is gradually consolidating external game development under Group 2, making it it's own XDev. Because Sony has been doing the same thing lately with PlayStation Studios originally having like 6 external development sources (JAPAN Studio, XDev, Santa Monica Studio, Foster City Studio, San Diego Studio, and London Studio). But now they just decided to bring it all under XDev, allowing the other studios to focus on their own creations.
And again, it makes you wonder what EPD Group 1 had been working on since 2019 if they're no longer in charge of Fire Emblem or Pokemon and such. Did the new Group Manager completely restructure the studio to focus on internal development like the rest of EPD? Is Yamagami still at Nintendo at all?
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RaymondBryce
Octorok
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- He / him
The next EPD 10 game is coming this year, and its Pikmin 4!
Interestingly they seem to be on good terms with Nintendo still, they're currently selling a special Hanafuda set that Nintendo manufactures.
N75
Like Like
Along with Kusakihara, some other notable absences from FE specifically:
nintendo.fandom.com
nintendo.fandom.com
www.mobygames.com
Tsukiyama also worked on Three Hopes but it isn't listed on the page.
Kazuyoshi Toriyama
Kazuyoshi Toriyama is a planner for Nintendo EPD. Originally, he joined the company on 1996 and was involved in development for internal tools, as well as hardware development for the Pokémon mini. After working on technical support in some other projects, he moved towards planning by 2017...
nintendo.fandom.com
Kana Tsukiyama
Kana Tsukiyama is a character designer for Intelligent Systems. Crashmo - Graphic Design Game & Wario - Graphic Design, Game Design, Voice, Model Pushmo World - Graphic Design Fire Emblem Fates - Battle Unit Modeling Paper Mario: Color Splash - Environment Art Fire Emblem Heroes - Unit Design &...
nintendo.fandom.com
Mao Yamanaka Video Game Credits and Biography - MobyGames
Mao Yamanaka has been credited on games developed by the following companies: Intelligent Systems Co., Ltd., Koei Tecmo Games Co., Ltd., DeNA Co., Ltd. and Nintendo EPD. This does not imply employment by these companies. Mao Yamanaka was credited on a game as early as 2017 and as recently as...
Tsukiyama also worked on Three Hopes but it isn't listed on the page.
Or were moved under EPD 2 after 2019.
TheMoon
(not a sphere)
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even back when I took over the old thread from Ninja with the group tables, he already was hoping there'd be clarification on those groups and how they're set up and we didn't really get any new info since then. As all the info was c/p'd over from that thread in the move to fami, it's sorta still in this waiting period. At least we now know for sure that Yokota and FE/Xenoblade/Bayonetta are under EPD 2 (I guess this was missed during the Ask the Dev entries for Xenoblade 2 where Genki Yokota was already attributed to EPD 2:
(Nintendo, please make tracking this easier for us lol)
I guess with formerly EPD2's bread and butter being mostly retired or handed off stuff (all the leftover SPD4 projects) like the Fatal Frame series or Mario & Luigi, those small indie collabs (Good Job!) freeing up space, it made no sense to have two groups doing outside collaboration/coordination.
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Mr Doggo
Anti oof
at this point you may as well turn into a general level designer lol
i agree, although like you pointed Nintendo's western studios wont see any change.
I'm not sure. Games like Snipperclips and Good Job! both developed by European teams, were EPD Group 2 productions, along with games based on western licenses like DC Superhero Girls, and even Mario Kart Live was done by them (they were the NCL liaison for Velan). I imagine that games like Luigi's Mansion and Metroid Prime 4 are only being worked on by EPD Group 6 as a holdover from the SPD days, likely because Kensuke Tanabe has a good relationship with Retro and Next Level Games.
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Well, yeah; and I imagine that as long as EPD 6 remains Tanabe's group, Retro and NST games (+ Paper Mario from IntSys) will continue to be produced under it. Not everything will end up under EPD 2 as long as that is the case.
I feel the more interesting spot for speculation is EPD 7 though; because as it stands right now you could make a case for 6 and 7 being a duo of manager-led external development groups, with Sakamoto in this case of course. Since Rhythm Heaven Megamix they have exclusively produced mobile titles (Miitomo, Dr. Mario World) and external productions (Samus Returns, FDC, Dread); nothing on Switch for the entirety of the system's life. Many staff formerly under EPD 7 have been credited on titles from other groups, primarily EPD 4, so the proof of their shift in focus should come when we finally get a new Tomodachi or Rythym Heaven title; whichever comes first.
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It'll be interesting to see what happens after Prime 4 comes out with Retro and Next Level's next titles to see if that's still the case.
Wasn't Dr. Mario World an EPD Smart Device Group title? Any way, Group 7 is an interesting case as Samus Retruns and Dread weren't entirely externally developed. EPD did the core design, music, and overal direction in-house, and Mercury Steam simply executed on their broader ideas, while adding a few of their own. It's a very similar manner in which Star Fox Zero and Sushi Striker were developed, where the idea and prototypes were generated internally at Nintendo, before working with a partner studio to bring it to life. FDC is an interesting exception however. I like to think it's similar to The Link's Awakening remake, where Grezzo did the actual development, but the Zelda crew at EPD Group 3 were in charge of overseeing it. Both games were likely well into development before whatever restructuring happened in 2019/2020.
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None of Nintendo’s internal mobile games have credits unfortunately, but if I recall correctly the few sources we do have show that internal staff that worked on Miitomo went on to work on Dr. Mario World. Whether it was produced under Sakamoto and EPD 7 or solely under the mobile group would be incredibly telling for EPD 7’s status; the latter being even more evidence for my overall point even.
