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Retro Miyamoto Hoped For Mario 64 Sequel To Be Complex Like Banjo-Kazooie

Rareware

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Found this interesting quote from Miyamoto from an interview conducted back in 1998:

Q: What do you think of Rare's titles?

Miyamoto:

Rare's does great work. For example, Banjo-Kazooie is so good and we can only hope that the Mario 64 sequel will be as complex. Rare is a good company and I wish that we can make a game together some day.

Source: https://www.ign.com/articles/1998/05/27/miyamoto-shows-off-zelda-64

So do you all think Super Mario Sunshine lived up to Miyamoto’s ‘hope’? Was it as complex as Banjo-Kazooie? More complex, even? And with this in mind, could Banjo be the inspiration for F.L.U.D.D.?!

Mario 64–inspires Banjo-Kazooie—>inspires Super Mario Sunshine. It’s the circle of Nintendo & Rare life.

Let’s discuss!
 
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Never thought of comparing Sunshine with the first BK, but I always thought BT was a better sequel than Sunshine.
 
The gab between the interview and Mario Sunshine release tells me that general idea was probably not something they kept in mind. I could be wrong obviously, I don’t really keep up with Nintendo interviews from that far back.

And seeing how Mario Sunshine was rushed and trouble development, I think they had more of a relief that the game was out the door. Tho if they were happy about the end results, that I don’t know. They ended up making Mario Galaxy then tho, so a bounce back
 
I think Sunshine is a much better game than Banjo but the similarities are definitely there. Guess that explains the blue coins
 
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aww, makes me sad the collaboration never happened.

As someone who adores Banjo, this might explain why I love the design philosophies, personality, gameplay loop, and traversal of Sunshine so much though.
 
Banjo-Kazooie is a really great game! Almost as good as Super Mario 64, even; so i'm not surprised they'd want to take some inspiration from it. I'm convinced certain aspects of Odyssey were influenced by it.

Sunshine is unfortunately a lot worse than the three afformentioned games, so I guess Nintendo didn't learn enough from B-K back then 😢
 
This explains why Odyssey had so many elements that felt like the Banjo games. I don't think this is about Sunshine though but the canceled Mario 64 2.

I did think at the time FLUDD seemed similar to the concept of Kazooie, as well as the worlds in Sunshine being more grounded in a real sense of place and less abstract, but it's hard to say how much of that DNA carried over from the canceled 64DD sequel.
 
This explains why Odyssey had so many elements that felt like the Banjo games. I don't think this is about Sunshine though but the canceled Mario 64 2.

I did think at the time FLUDD seemed similar to the concept of Kazooie, as well as the worlds in Sunshine being more grounded in a real sense of place and less abstract, but it's hard to say how much of that DNA carried over from the canceled 64DD sequel.
This line of thought only confirms my not really fair and somewhat disingenuous but totally confirmed by my 90 minutes of playing Banjo-Kazooie conspiracy that Super Mario Odyssey is a Banjo game except that the movement is Actually Fun.
 
Odyssey is that game. It's the first Mario game to surpass Banjo-Kazooie since BK released. It took the formula and went crazy with it.
 
I've always felt Sunshine felt more like Banjo than Mario. Which is why I've never liked it.
 
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I liked banjo when I was young.
Now all I can see is how weak it is as a platforming game even more when I started grasping the technicality of the 3d mario serie.
But I guess he's talking about the world building aspect and puzzles introducing a breadth of gameplays.
 
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aww, makes me sad the collaboration never happened.

As someone who adores Banjo, this might explain why I love the design philosophies, personality, gameplay loop, and traversal of Sunshine so much though.

That was an interesting thing to say as well. Wonder what kind of game they would have collaborated on? Guess we’ll never know.

Odyssey is that game. It's the first Mario game to surpass Banjo-Kazooie since BK released. It took the formula and went crazy with it.

That was one of my favorite things about Odyssey. Them taking that approach of just being able to play the worlds and collect things as you go at-will whenever you wanted rather than the usual mission based stuff of all the previous 3D Marios.

Banjo-Kazooie is a really great game! Almost as good as Super Mario 64, even; so i'm not surprised they'd want to take some inspiration from it. I'm convinced certain aspects of Odyssey were influenced by it.

Sunshine is unfortunately a lot worse than the three afformentioned games, so I guess Nintendo didn't learn enough from B-K back then 😢

Yeah Mario’s use of a backpack didn’t turn out so hot, did it? Lol
 
I never once thought about Banjo & Kazooie when playing Sunshine back in the day as a kid. The locales and those FLUDD-less levels were cool but Sunshine had some tedium in it so it was always a lesser sequel than Kazooie -> Tooie.

So it's fascinating to hear that Miyamoto acknowledged that they wanted to make their next 3D Mario to be as complex as Banjo was.
 
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I think what Miyamoto means by this is a secondary means of platforming. Like the way Kazooie was Banjo’s double jump.

I mean you can complain about Sunshine’s level design and collectibles but the FLUDD absolutely accomplishes the Kazooie effect. And Mario’s controls in Sunshine are as, if not more responsive than Banjo in Banjo-Kazooie.

Glad to see Miyamoto recognize Banjo’s accomplishments.
 
Never understood the weird hate Mario Sunshine gets in forums when all the people I've met that had a Gamecube as kids always speak fondly about the game. Hell, when the collection was announced I saw more hyped in social media (and youtube) about Sunshine than the other games. You guys are weird.

Anyway, nobody said this but maybe the fact that Sunshine had a deeper story with cut scenes and voice acting was all inspired by all the Rare platformers. That would make alot of sense. Maybe they also liked Rayman 2 too.
 
I’ve never been a fan of the Banjo games. But I was very inpressed by the Viva Pinata games. Rare has talent for sure.
 
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This quote makes an awful lot of sense when you think about Sunshine. I guess I was sleeping tight all those years because I never made the comparison with BK until today and it's pretty obvious lol.
 
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Never understood the weird hate Mario Sunshine gets in forums when all the people I've met that had a Gamecube as kids always speak fondly about the game. Hell, when the collection was announced I saw more hyped in social media (and youtube) about Sunshine than the other games. You guys are weird.

Anyway, nobody said this but maybe the fact that Sunshine had a deeper story with cut scenes and voice acting was all inspired by all the Rare platformers. That would make alot of sense. Maybe they also liked Rayman 2 too.
Yeah, the Sunshine hate is weird, and it seems especially strong on this site compared to others. Even if you consider it a weaker Mario game, it's still a great game.
 
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Never understood the weird hate Mario Sunshine gets in forums when all the people I've met that had a Gamecube as kids always speak fondly about the game. Hell, when the collection was announced I saw more hyped in social media (and youtube) about Sunshine than the other games. You guys are weird.

Anyway, nobody said this but maybe the fact that Sunshine had a deeper story with cut scenes and voice acting was all inspired by all the Rare platformers. That would make alot of sense. Maybe they also liked Rayman 2 too.
I was in high school when sunshine came out and bought it day one. After Mario 64, Banjo 1&2, I liked sunshine at first, but it became pretty clear that something was missing the more I played it. I don't hate it, but it doesn't hold up well compared to the games that came before or after it.
 
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I refuse to accept this Sunshine slander. It has its problems, mainly the blue coins and some one-off levels (pachinko...) but it has the fastest, twitchiest Mario with the best moveset out of any of the 3D games. Odyssey probably has the second best movement but it's a lot slower. The tropical setting in Sunshine is bliss.

Banjo-Kazooie is a great game and as a kid I liked it more than Mario 64, but as an adult I prefer pretty much every 3D Mario over it. You can see some Banjo inspiration in Sunshine and Odyssey especially. I would've loved to see what a Gamecube Banjo game looked like and how it would've pushed the Mario team to be even better.
 
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Never understood the weird hate Mario Sunshine gets in forums when all the people I've met that had a Gamecube as kids always speak fondly about the game. Hell, when the collection was announced I saw more hyped in social media (and youtube) about Sunshine than the other games. You guys are weird.

Anyway, nobody said this but maybe the fact that Sunshine had a deeper story with cut scenes and voice acting was all inspired by all the Rare platformers. That would make alot of sense. Maybe they also liked Rayman 2 too.
I've been on forums talking about Mario games for more than half my life and Sunshine has always been treated like this no matter where you go. A black sheep in the Mario franchise with some diehard fans. There are more vocal ones nowadays though, particularly younger fans who grew up on the GameCube. A lot of the hype for Sunshine in All-Stars was also that it was the first ever rerelease of the game.

I liked the game upon release but the more I revisit it the more I dislike it and have less patience for its tedious and unfinished aspects.
Banjo Kazooie > Every 3D Mario

Yeah, I said it. Come and get me Mario fans!
Meanwhile every replay of Banjo-Kazooie really only strengthens my opinion that it's the best 3D platformer. Just a near-perfect 10 hour game.
 
Anyway, nobody said this but maybe the fact that Sunshine had a deeper story with cut scenes and voice acting was all inspired by all the Rare platformers. That would make alot of sense. Maybe they also liked Rayman 2 too.
Always thought it got inspired by Sonic Adventure with its dynamic hub. Sunshine beta even had humans!

FLUDD is basically Kazooie, though.
 
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As a teen, Sunshine was one of my most anticipated games but the technical issues and for me personally, less engaging gameplay, made it disappointing. That said I thought the critical consensus at the time was that it was a good game but a significant step down from SM64; however, looking at Metacritic and reviews from the time I see it garnered critical acclaim. I was online a lot at the time and my memory of this is different, likely colored by gaming forums at the time. I think it may have been one of those games where the online fan response was less enthusiastic than the critics. But I would be glad to be corrected if I'm misremembering this, too, since I was definitely misremembering the critical consensus.

Either way, I think it's an interesting game and has some technical and level design flaws for me that prevent it from being a top tier Mario game personally. Part of that comes from it being part of the early 3D era of gaming, though. I'm interested to give it another shot sometime on the 3D All-Stars collection.
 
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There's something hilarious about the confidence people speak with in relation to Sunshine being a great or bad game, like its very contentious and yet people still say 'objectively it's bad/good'. It cracks me up

Anyways while I'm not sure there was direct influence, I can sorta see how Sunshine might have been influenced in terms of a backpack companion and the way the worlds work.
 
I've always felt that Banjo Kazooie was essentially the next logical evolution of Mario 64; the same core concept but more cohesive, varied, and expansive.

It wasn't until Mario Odyssey that I felt like we finally got the "Mario 64 II" I'd dreamt about since the 90s. (Don't get me wrong, Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 are two of the best video games ever made in my opinion, but they were in a distinctively different mold)
 
Just stumbled to this thread a bit late so sorry for the bump.

Yeah, it lived up to it pretty well. Like Sunshine was a better game than any 3D Platformer game Rare made post-BK. Tooie and DK64 were not good in any aspect, I would argue.

Mario's movement was better than any Rare platformer and the level design and actual worlds in Sunshine were significantly more complex than anything on the N64. Generally Sunshine does feel a bit rough in certain aspects, due to the rushed development but I would play it over any 3D platformer on the N64 aside from well Mario 64, and maybe the original BK depending on the mood. But even BK has plenty of aspects that are surpassed by Sunshine.
 
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replaying Banjo Kazooie made me realize that I prefer Mario 64 over every Rare 3D platformer. The progression feels more rewarding and open and the castle in general is a better hub then Gruntys Lair in my opinion.
 
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Oh yes! In fact Banjo games are the pinnacle of 3D platforming games with very satisfying collection mechanics, DK64 is the only game that goes even further and makes you collect collectables in an entirely different game.

Sunshine was a great Mario game until Splatoon stole his nozzle.
 
I’d love to know what the original Japanese word is being translated to “complex” there…

So much of what he means here hangs on that one word.

Still interesting and cool to see the admiration he had for 1990s Rare.
 
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He's damn right! Banjo Kazooie really one upped Mario 64, and you can even see the Banjo influence in Odyssey.

Imagine how amazing it would have been in Rare stayed with Nintendo, with Banjo and Mario trying to one up each other with each release.
 
see I circumvented expectation by avoiding both game reviews and internet forums about games as a kid

I was all AIM, Neopets, King’s Quest VI walkthroughs, and in-browser Bionicle flash games. no time for the discourse, just the unfettered chaos of experiencing

and that’s why I had a blast with Mario Sunshine and still have a blast with it to this day
 
Mario 64 is more complex than Banjo Kazooie. Banjo Kazooie is just more complicated.

What is complicated about Banjo? It seemed pretty straight forward to me. Collect Jiggies, collect notes, easy puzzles, and a much easier camera to use. It had a couple of parts that were difficult—and I guess you could say complicated?—with the infamous Rusty Bucket Bay engine room, climbing the tree in Clock Clock Wood several times, and navigating the depths of Clanker’s Cavern. But overall, it was a much simpler and easier game than Mario 64. Now Banjo-Tooie on the other hand… that’s about as complicated and complex as it gets.
 
That makes sense. Sunshine was EAD trying to make Banjo Kazooie. I think it was great, just needed more polishing. They got 100% right with Odyssey -- it's the pinnacle of Mario and Banjo at the same time.
 
What is complicated about Banjo? It seemed pretty straight forward to me. Collect Jiggies, collect notes, easy puzzles, and a much easier camera to use. It had a couple of parts that were difficult—and I guess you could say complicated?—with the infamous Rusty Bucket Bay engine room, climbing the tree in Clock Clock Wood several times, and navigating the depths of Clanker’s Cavern. But overall, it was a much simpler and easier game than Mario 64. Now Banjo-Tooie on the other hand… that’s about as complicated and complex as it gets.
I just meant it has a lot of extraneous abilities that don't really add anything to the whole. Stuff like walking up steep inclines on your back - just routine actions that you have to do for completion's sake that don't meaningfully add to the experience and aren't especially fun to play around with because the moves don't really flow together. The transformations are a more egregious example of what I'm talking about. There are a lot of moves at your disposal but the movement options aren't as deep as Mario 64 - they just add to the breadth of your arsenal. I guess the complex vs complicated dichotomy could probably be better expressed as depth vs breadth. Much of B-K is essentially a rigmarole, and there are few possibilities for creative expression of experimentation.
Watching a speedrun of both games back to back makes the difference stark. What's that expression? A puddle a mile wide and an inch deep. I'm coming down pretty hard on B-K here, which isn't really fair - it's good at what it does. But if we're comparing? There is no comparison. It's just unfair on B-K to do that and extremely weird to think B-K comes off better in the exchange.
 
That makes sense. Sunshine was EAD trying to make Banjo Kazooie. I think it was great, just needed more polishing. They got 100% right with Odyssey -- it's the pinnacle of Mario and Banjo at the same time.
Odyssey always felt like a natural sequel to Banjo Kazooie/Banjo Tooie gameplay with Mario elements.
 
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Weirdly enough Odyssey feels a lot more like Kazooie to me. If anything Sunshine feels even less like the Rareware era N64 games than 64 in some respects; there are fewer shines, and a lot of them are found in traditionally structured levels with a very clearly defined goal to the player, making it a natural link between 64 and Galaxy rather than upping the collectathon-ness. Though I suppose the increase in movement mechanics and player abilities could have been inspired by stuff like Kazooie and DK64.
 
Never understood the weird hate Mario Sunshine gets in forums when all the people I've met that had a Gamecube as kids always speak fondly about the game. Hell, when the collection was announced I saw more hyped in social media (and youtube) about Sunshine than the other games. You guys are weird.

Anyway, nobody said this but maybe the fact that Sunshine had a deeper story with cut scenes and voice acting was all inspired by all the Rare platformers. That would make alot of sense. Maybe they also liked Rayman 2 too.
Mario Sunshine is possibly the worst 3D Mario, which makes it better than 80% of the 3D platformers out there. People are just hyperbolic.
 
I never really thought about it.

But now thinking about it, Sunshine did have some of Rare's worst collectathon traits (the Blue Coins, my god)

Anyway, Banjo-Kazooie is one of only three games I consider perfect. The other two are RE4 and Super Mario World.
 
i don’t get the sunshine naysayers. It has some negative qualities but you’re going to play that game and tell me it’s not one of the tightest controlling platformers ever made? You gunna tell me Delfino Plaza isn’t the best hub world to play around in?
 
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