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Pre-Release Metroid Prime 4: Pre-Release Discussion Thread

Magic-Man said:
Third person Metroid Prime is no longer Metroid Prime
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I suspect this is, in no small part, why people are generally suggesting this wouldn't happen and that, if it did, it wouldn't be a Metroid Prime.

As noted earlier, the first-person perspective and third-person perspective should have differing strengths and weaknesses for Metroid to work with and around, meaning the different perspectives would lead to different outcomes. First-person Metroid plays differently and introduces different situations and handles situations differently than a hypothetical third-person Metroid would. This is also why development of this game is incredibly unlikely to shift to another perspective.

It's also why I really think there's room for 2D, first-person 3D, and third-person 3D to coexist in the Metroid sphere, and why I really think they should. Again, I think the best-case scenario, however unlikely it might be, would be that Nintendo is already working with another team on a third-person 3D game. And even then, third-person 3D could be realized in any number of different ways.

But, again, in my ideal scenario, Metroid Prime 4 wouldn't even be called Prime. It would start its own little arc or throughline and be given its own title for that purpose. I also think a remake of Prime: Hunters could drop the Prime title. Though I understand calling it Prime is more a marketing tool than anything.
 
AngryAlchemist said:
I know I'm overthinking it, because it's just a hypothetical, but ideally the series would be way more popular by the time they start having 2 3D series (whether that means 2D is sacrificed or not). It would be a headache managing that and if the series remained niche I could see it having bad consequences.
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I can see where you're coming from with this, yeah, though I suspect it's not nearly so drastic. Again, the timespan between release of new entries of the different branches plays a role in this. And I find the necessary differentiation inherent to different forms can even help avoid people feeling like there's too much of the series coming out too quickly.

The integral part, I think, is in mapping out different parameters that define what makes Metroid feel like Metroid, so different branches can lean into the Metroid-ness and feel consistent, even as they are incredibly different. Metroid as a whole is rather plot-lite, which should help in keeping everything fitting together in that area.

In the end, I expect the different suggested forms are different enough that their existence doesn't cause issues overall, and might even be the preferred way for Nintendo to put out a bit more of one of its flagship IPs, rather than trying to push out more of one of the other two options.

The problem is that there's still only so much room to experiment in each form; they're so different from each other and yet allow for so many different variations within each type as well.

Phendrift said:
third person over-the-shoulder like the REmakes or like Other M?
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AngryAlchemist said:
I feel like a third person Metroid should probably try to implement some of the appeal of the 2D games, and as a result it would either have a camera like Other M, or a camera that's only over the shoulder while aiming, that way it could implement platforming and jumping better than if it was over the shoulder.
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I think the specific form of third-person perspective should reflect the goals of the title in particular, so the specifics aren't necessarily important until that's figured out. The tricky part is probably in working with shooting/combat and platforming, or in what best builds the scenery and atmosphere.

Part of me thinks mobility and ability concerns suggest a more pulled-back camera, but it really depends on how everything is meant to work together.

It's an interesting consideration, though, of what form this hypothetical Metroid could take.

TheSpaceBetween said:
I also want a separate 3rd person game. Gimmie dat Other M 2.
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I've been meaning to jump back in the overall Metroid thread to ask this, and it probably fits better in there overall: when you say you want an Other M 2, what do you mean by that? I think there's room to iterate and improve the gameplay ideas, and that would be my takeaway. I really don't think plot or story is something it offers much for, though.

Actually, I think I'd considered how a more fixed perspective camera could work if something were ever to really come from Retro's Metroid Prime 1.5, and Other M is probably a good starting example. I think this is also where my Blame!-inspiration suggestion originates, which would make use of that sort of forced perspective.

AngryAlchemist said:
I do think the series has a better chance of being more popular with 3rd person games in Japan though, though I don't think it will ever be big.
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Yeah, I don't know how much we might be able to expect it to grow there -- and I don't really think it should reinvent itself to that end (again, the aforementioned parameters) -- but I do think it would help the series gain more of a foothold and develop more mindshare in Japan, certainly more than Prime would be expected to. And I suspect this idea would be appealing to Nintendo.

I doubt they're actively pursuing it, though. You need people to oversee it and to work on it, after all.
 
On the subject of what a 3rd person Metroid could be, I think the recent Jedi games, Returnal, and Control, all offer elements to pull from in how 3rd person Metroid could work.
 
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One aspect I think Metroid could improve on is it’s key art. I want something really evocative like BotW and TotK’s. I want the first art we get to blow me away.

Though now that I think about it, it’s less of a Metroid problem and more than Zelda is just genuinely way better at having evocative key art than pretty much every other Nintendo series (though Xenoblade is pretty great too I guess, if a bit samey at this point)

We’re probably just gonna get a close up Samus render over an abstract background, I just hope the render is good lol.

The first 3 Prime game boxarts not even attempting to capture any of their gorgeous environments was always mind boggling to me.
 
Phendrift said:
One aspect I think Metroid could improve on is it’s key art. I want something really evocative like BotW and TotK’s. I want the first art we get to blow me away.

Though now that I think about it, it’s less of a Metroid problem and more than Zelda is just genuinely way better at having evocative key art than pretty much every other Nintendo series (though Xenoblade is pretty great too I guess, if a bit samey at this point)

We’re probably just gonna get a close up Samus render over an abstract background, I just hope the render is good lol.

The first 3 Prime game boxarts not even attempting to capture any of their gorgeous environments was always mind boggling to me.
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I need the box art to be printed on holographic paper like Metroid Prime 2: Echoes. I think a piece of artwork rather than game assets would also be good.
 
Supreme Overlord said:
I can see where you're coming from with this, yeah, though I suspect it's not nearly so drastic. Again, the timespan between release of new entries of the different branches plays a role in this. And I find the necessary differentiation inherent to different forms can even help avoid people feeling like there's too much of the series coming out too quickly.

The integral part, I think, is in mapping out different parameters that define what makes Metroid feel like Metroid, so different branches can lean into the Metroid-ness and feel consistent, even as they are incredibly different. Metroid as a whole is rather plot-lite, which should help in keeping everything fitting together in that area.

In the end, I expect the different suggested forms are different enough that their existence doesn't cause issues overall, and might even be the preferred way for Nintendo to put out a bit more of one of its flagship IPs, rather than trying to push out more of one of the other two options.

The problem is that there's still only so much room to experiment in each form; they're so different from each other and yet allow for so many different variations within each type as well.



I think the specific form of third-person perspective should reflect the goals of the title in particular, so the specifics aren't necessarily important until that's figured out. The tricky part is probably in working with shooting/combat and platforming, or in what best builds the scenery and atmosphere.

Part of me thinks mobility and ability concerns suggest a more pulled-back camera, but it really depends on how everything is meant to work together.

It's an interesting consideration, though, of what form this hypothetical Metroid could take.


I've been meaning to jump back in the overall Metroid thread to ask this, and it probably fits better in there overall: when you say you want an Other M 2, what do you mean by that? I think there's room to iterate and improve the gameplay ideas, and that would be my takeaway. I really don't think plot or story is something it offers much for, though.

Actually, I think I'd considered how a more fixed perspective camera could work if something were ever to really come from Retro's Metroid Prime 1.5, and Other M is probably a good starting example. I think this is also where my Blame!-inspiration suggestion originates, which would make use of that sort of forced perspective.


Yeah, I don't know how much we might be able to expect it to grow there -- and I don't really think it should reinvent itself to that end (again, the aforementioned parameters) -- but I do think it would help the series gain more of a foothold and develop more mindshare in Japan, certainly more than Prime would be expected to. And I suspect this idea would be appealing to Nintendo.

I doubt they're actively pursuing it, though. You need people to oversee it and to work on it, after all.
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I mean Other M as a concept is amazing. A story driven third person action Metroid game that also has 2d and first person elements. It has the potential to take everything great about the series and push it in new directions. Almost like the ultimate Metroid game.

Of course, it didn't work out that way, but it was a really ambitious game and had a lot of interesting ideas with mixed (and at times bad) execution. But I belive Sakamoto has learned from his mistakes and is back at the top of his game near the twilight of his career, and with the right team under his helm could make an amazing spiritual successor.

Him and Retro should really team up to make the ultimate Metroid.
 
Evil Lucario said:
Honestly think that a third-person Metroid game should take cues from Resident Evil 4 and 3 Remake, since that blends in shooting with melee attacks. Add in the dodge from 3 Remake and you would have a perfect moveset.
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If the series goes third persons I want it to look at something faster than than RE.
It should be a proper action game, so Other M but with actual level design that isn't just walk straight through the hallways and without the ridiculous idea of limiting the controls to what was on an NES Gamepad.

Not quite vanquish or devil may cry, but I want the Speed booster in a 3D game with level designs that makes use of it.
 
AllEchse said:
If the series goes third persons I want it to look at something faster than than RE.
It should be a proper action game, so Other M but with actual level design that isn't just walk straight through the hallways and without the ridiculous idea of limiting the controls to what was on an NES Gamepad.

Not quite vanquish or devil may cry, but I want the Speed booster in a 3D game with level designs that makes use of it.
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Something closer to Vanquish would also be neat, that game could have made its melee attacks way more usable like Resident Evil but it's also a great blueprint.

ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Metroid is a shooter-platformer.
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And? You're still gonna have platforming be integral to the game, both in the world and combat.
 
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As much as I love Vanquish, Returnal, Control, and others like it, Metroid will always live and die with its level design, pacing/progression, and atmosphere. None of those games are constructed like a Metroid game.

But yeah, I understand the fluidity of movement and shooting in those 3d 3rd person games is appealing. I have no doubt that with how much work they put into perfecting the movement in Dread, MS and Ninty would do an amazing job translating that to 3d. Maybe even invite some folks from the Splatoon team for assistance.
 
TheSpaceBetween said:
I mean Other M as a concept is amazing. A story driven third person action Metroid game that also has 2d and first person elements. It has the potential to take everything great about the series and push it in new directions. Almost like the ultimate Metroid game.
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I wouldn't go quite that far, but I definitely do think the gameplay had potential and could lead to something especially promising if properly refined. I'm not terribly excited about a plot-driven Metroid, though, really. It doesn't play so much to the series' strengths and risks taking away from them (as seen in Other M).

Again, though, there's something there to work with, and I do wish Other M had lived up to its potential.


AllEchse said:
If the series goes third persons I want it to look at something faster than than RE.
It should be a proper action game [...]

Not quite vanquish or devil may cry, but I want the Speed booster in a 3D game with level designs that makes use of it.
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Yes, mobility and movement should play a good role. It impacts both traversal of terrain and exploration as well as combat. For combat, it can help create a system that doesn't rely on beam-sponges, even.

Evil Lucario said:
Honestly think that a third-person Metroid game should take cues from Resident Evil 4 and 3 Remake, since that blends in shooting with melee attacks. Add in the dodge from 3 Remake and you would have a perfect moveset.
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You know, I'm not really familiar with the remakes. My immediate thought is that melee combat wouldn't be the focus, but a lot of my thought on the matter draws from post-Fusion contemplation, where I've figured health-regeneration would require Samus to put herself at something of a disadvantage to get close to an enemy and absorb some energy.

TheSpaceBetween said:
As much as I love Vanquish, Returnal, Control, and others like it, Metroid will always live and die with its level design, pacing/progression, and atmosphere. None of those games are constructed like a Metroid game.

But yeah, I understand the fluidity of movement and shooting in those 3d 3rd person games is appealing. I have no doubt that with how much work they put into perfecting the movement in Dread, MS and Ninty would do an amazing job translating that to 3d. Maybe even invite some folks from the Splatoon team for assistance.
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Yeah, those games are great examples for fluidity of movement, but that doesn't mean Metroid should necessarily be like them. Metroid should be like Metroid, which provides its own opportunity for mobility and combat and how it all correlates with progression and level design and atmosphere.

I've had the thought that MercurySteam could move on to a third-person 3D Metroid with Nintendo's supervision, but I really find it more likely they'd go straight into a new 2D title. I'm sure Nintendo could find another partner to help with a third-person 3D title.

I still think Retro's Prime 1.5 could be worked into such a thing, but it seems unlikely they'll have that opportunity soon.


Dark Cloud said:
Plus Metroid Prime’s combat can improve
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Absolutely true, combat and traversal both.
 
Dark Cloud said:
I figured it out. Give Samus a dog to ride around.
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How dare you. She has a perfectly good ostrich right there.

40f.gif
 
AngryAlchemist said:
So random question but how would you guys feel if after all this time Metroid Prime 4 ended up being a third person game? Would that be disappointing? Exciting? Just wondering what everyone here thinks.
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I would be way more likely to play it, but I am probably in the minority in this thread lol
 
Mekanos said:
I would be way more likely to play it, but I am probably in the minority in this thread lol
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I suspect the main reason you'd be in the minority there is because most of the thread probably intends to play it regardless. I do share the interest in a third-person 3D Metroid, though. I think there's untapped potential there.
 
AngryAlchemist said:
So random question but how would you guys feel if after all this time Metroid Prime 4 ended up being a third person game? Would that be disappointing? Exciting? Just wondering what everyone here thinks.
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If they made 3rd person Samus control tanky it could work.
 
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A third-person 3D Metroid could definitely work, but Metroid Prime 4 doesn't need to be third-person to be faster and more fluid. Games like Titanfall and Doom 2016/Doom Eternal already do really well at providing fast paced movement and action with a first-person perspective, and Prime 4 could probably even implement some form of the speed booster with similar mechanics.

I still think the newer Doom games are likely going to be a major influence for Prime 4's movement and combat, and maybe even the platforming sections in those games. One reason is that Id Software, the developers of Doom, are located in Texas just like Retro Studios. The chances of some cross-pollination happening between companies are higher if developers are in more frequent contact with each other, and other video game companies in Texas don't have games with quite as many similarities. The next closest would probably be Gearbox Software, the developers of the Borderlands games, but those games are very different, falling more in line with the slower pace of most first-person shooters.

Prime 4 would still be very different to Doom even with those similarities, since exploration is much more a staple of Metroid than it is of Doom. That fast paced action mixed with all the exploration should lead to a very unique game. That's also why I'm hoping for a much larger total area to explore, with plenty of optional regions and paths to take, since if it isn't large enough, the faster pace would make the game too short.
 
carbonaxiom said:
A third-person 3D Metroid could definitely work, but Metroid Prime 4 doesn't need to be third-person to be faster and more fluid. Games like Titanfall and Doom 2016/Doom Eternal already do really well at providing fast paced movement and action with a first-person perspective, and Prime 4 could probably even implement some form of the speed booster with similar mechanics.

I still think the newer Doom games are likely going to be a major influence for Prime 4's movement and combat, and maybe even the platforming sections in those games. One reason is that Id Software, the developers of Doom, are located in Texas just like Retro Studios. The chances of some cross-pollination happening between companies are higher if developers are in more frequent contact with each other, and other video game companies in Texas don't have games with quite as many similarities. The next closest would probably be Gearbox Software, the developers of the Borderlands games, but those games are very different, falling more in line with the slower pace of most first-person shooters.

Prime 4 would still be very different to Doom even with those similarities, since exploration is much more a staple of Metroid than it is of Doom. That fast paced action mixed with all the exploration should lead to a very unique game. That's also why I'm hoping for a much larger total area to explore, with plenty of optional regions and paths to take, since if it isn't large enough, the faster pace would make the game too short.
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It's also harder to nail exploration if movement speed is too fast, because you'll just naturally pass things by or miss things if you're going too fast. They have to find a way to balance it, so that the slower, methodical searching and observation of the environment isn't too at odds with the more frenetic combat and platforming.
 
AngryAlchemist said:
So random question but how would you guys feel if after all this time Metroid Prime 4 ended up being a third person game? Would that be disappointing? Exciting? Just wondering what everyone here thinks.
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Disappointed. First person is largely associated with the Prime games. It’s part of what sets them apart from all of the other Metroid games. I’d still play it and love it, I’m sure, if it was third person, but it’s not what I expect or want from a Prime game.
 
TheSpaceBetween said:
It's also harder to nail exploration if movement speed is too fast, because you'll just naturally pass things by or miss things if you're going too fast. They have to find a way to balance it, so that the slower, methodical searching and observation of the environment isn't too at odds with the more frenetic combat and platforming.
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It is definitely a difficult thing to balance. I'm guessing it would have to be done through creative level design where plenty of areas are made so that you can't easily speed through them.
 
The platforming is something that isn't really discussed much, but I've been thinking... With Retro now masters of platforming with the DKC games under their belt, are we expecting more elaborate platforming in MP4? Obviously first person platforming is far different than 2D platforming, but the trilogy had it's fair share back in the day, and I'm interested to see how they'll incorporate it into the overall design, and what improvements and changes they will make. Also, since people seem to want/expect this to be a bigger/longer game, I wonder if they might have sort of isolated segments with missile upgrades and/or other rewards for completing complex platforming challenges. Just a thought...
 
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Supreme Overlord said:
I suspect this is, in no small part, why people are generally suggesting this wouldn't happen and that, if it did, it wouldn't be a Metroid Prime.

As noted earlier, the first-person perspective and third-person perspective should have differing strengths and weaknesses for Metroid to work with and around, meaning the different perspectives would lead to different outcomes. First-person Metroid plays differently and introduces different situations and handles situations differently than a hypothetical third-person Metroid would. This is also why development of this game is incredibly unlikely to shift to another perspective.

It's also why I really think there's room for 2D, first-person 3D, and third-person 3D to coexist in the Metroid sphere, and why I really think they should. Again, I think the best-case scenario, however unlikely it might be, would be that Nintendo is already working with another team on a third-person 3D game. And even then, third-person 3D could be realized in any number of different ways.

But, again, in my ideal scenario, Metroid Prime 4 wouldn't even be called Prime. It would start its own little arc or throughline and be given its own title for that purpose. I also think a remake of Prime: Hunters could drop the Prime title. Though I understand calling it Prime is more a marketing tool than anything.
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they could add third person gameplay on Metroid Prime 4, like Bethesda is doing with Starfield that have the option of both a first-person/third person gameplay, why MP4 cant have this?
 
Giancarlo said:
they could add third person gameplay on Metroid Prime 4, like Bethesda is doing with Starfield that have the option of both a first-person/third person gameplay, why MP4 cant have this?
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Bethesda's third-person modes are an afterthought. Mostly the character feeling like they're ice skating around, because it's still fundamentally first-person movement, but with the camera simply having been repositioned. It wouldn't make for a particularly elegant solution in MP4's case, imo.
 
Aurc said:
Bethesda's third-person modes are an afterthought. Mostly the character feeling like they're ice skating around, because it's still fundamentally first-person movement, but with the camera simply having been repositioned. It wouldn't make for a particularly elegant solution in MP4's case, imo.
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Yeah, have to remember this is Nintendo. They’re not even gonna add options for button remapping, much less an entire POV option that the game isn’t polished to a sheen to support in every facet.
 
The two recent Jedi games probably fit the bill as far as how to design a 3rd person Metroid, in terms of environment sizes, movement, etc.
 
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Giancarlo said:
they could add third person gameplay on Metroid Prime 4, like Bethesda is doing with Starfield that have the option of both a first-person/third person gameplay, why MP4 cant have this?
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To follow up on what Aurc said regarding the options in question being more of afterthoughts, to bring that up to standard would add additional work, all for an option the game isn't designed around.

After all, as I noted in the quoted post, first-person and third-person perspectives will present differing sets of strengths and weaknesses, different opportunities and methods of achieving similar goals or dealing with similar problems. If Retro endeavors to play to the strengths first-person would offer, gameplay would be optimized for that perspective to the detriment of a theoretical third-person option; likewise, a third-person game with such a design philosophy would approach these challenges and designs in a manner that would not befit a first-person perspective. These choices can even extend to what powerups Samus can acquire and to how they work in the specific title; they can determine the basic mobility options and how combat works in general.

Not every developer will choose to build so strongly around the perspective for every game, of course, but it seems just throwing in a third-person option would lead to a much inferior result. It's for the best that the game is designed to make use of the gameplay perspective's quirks.
 
AngryAlchemist said:
So random question but how would you guys feel if after all this time Metroid Prime 4 ended up being a third person game? Would that be disappointing? Exciting? Just wondering what everyone here thinks.
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Wouldn’t be a big fan. First-person really amps up the immersion, exploration and atmosphere. Not to say the 2D games(especially SM) or a third-person 3D entry can’t achieve those things, but a sequel in the Prime line deviating from first-person would be a drastic turn imo.
 
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I don't have a good feeling about Prime 4 showing up sadly. But I have an excellent track record of being wrong about Prime 4 showing up at Directs. So hopefully not expecting it gives it a better chance to show.
 
Supreme Overlord said:
I suspect this is, in no small part, why people are generally suggesting this wouldn't happen and that, if it did, it wouldn't be a Metroid Prime.

As noted earlier, the first-person perspective and third-person perspective should have differing strengths and weaknesses for Metroid to work with and around, meaning the different perspectives would lead to different outcomes. First-person Metroid plays differently and introduces different situations and handles situations differently than a hypothetical third-person Metroid would. This is also why development of this game is incredibly unlikely to shift to another perspective.

It's also why I really think there's room for 2D, first-person 3D, and third-person 3D to coexist in the Metroid sphere, and why I really think they should. Again, I think the best-case scenario, however unlikely it might be, would be that Nintendo is already working with another team on a third-person 3D game. And even then, third-person 3D could be realized in any number of different ways.

But, again, in my ideal scenario, Metroid Prime 4 wouldn't even be called Prime. It would start its own little arc or throughline and be given its own title for that purpose. I also think a remake of Prime: Hunters could drop the Prime title. Though I understand calling it Prime is more a marketing tool than anything.
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Metroid Prime was planed to be in third person, but after Shigeru Miyamoto saw how Retro Studios was strugging with third person, he sugest the game to be in first person
 
A third person mode already exist in Metroid Prime games, it's called morph ball mode. They could improve that with different physics of ball, camera control and more movement options.
 
MrGab said:
A third person mode already exist in Metroid Prime games, it's called morph ball mode. They could improve that with different physics of ball, camera control and more movement options.
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The morph ball camera is already very good, though I wouldn't mind the addition of manual control with the right stick.
 
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I keep forgetting that it's September today. Occasionally losing track of time is another part of the process. Our conviction may very well pay off this month!
 
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