Official Tweet James Gunn outlines his and Peter Saffran's plans for the DC Universe

[JazzPotatoes]

FWIW: I do think Snyder does a lot of things right that he doesn't get credit for.

His version of Cyborg was great, and Ray Fisher has gone to defend Snyder for understanding how important it was for a black superhero to have a central role in Justice League. Cyborg's story is the best part of that film.

Similarly, Snyder let Wonder Woman be a competent, even bloodthirsty warrior without devolving into the sexist shenanigans and jokes that Joss Whedon did when he took over JL.

Snyder clearly understands why it's important that female and minority characters get screentime, and there's no evidence that he was ever unprofessional creepy or crude behind the scenes in the same way Whedon was.

However, he also has massive blindspots when it comes to the material he's adapting, and clearly is drawn to objectivist and right wing material for more than just the pretty imagery. I'm alright with film makers making films from a conservative angle, but things like 300 have some massively racist and ableist scenes that are really hard to excuse.

 

[Harina]

what the  fuck are you on about

They claim everyone in Troopers is evil which implies that's not the case in 300. Both the bugs and the Persians are framed as the aggressors. 300 begins with "honorable" eugenics.

Snyder said of Xerxes, "What's more scary to a 20-year-old boy than a giant god-king who wants to have his way with you?" - Zack Snyder, cool person who was totally making a cool point.

Double-Edged Sword | EW.com

In all likelihood, Spartan warriors didn't actually do battle in nothing but clingy leather underwear and red capes. They wore body armor and loose drawers…

web.archive.org

I think it's a dumb thing to say, but many liberals, not leftist, have a really bad understanding of how they're utilizing homophobia and it just comes off his homophobic, ie Lindsay Grahams 'outing.' Snyder is a milquetoast Hollywood liberal but he puts PoC voices first, Fisher helped Goyer write his scenes, empowers his female actors and fought the studio so he could hire Momoa.

.

However, he also has massive blindspots when it comes to the material he's adapting, and clearly is drawn to objectivist and right wing material for more than just the pretty imagery

This is the crux of the issue, liberals need to stop conceding to nazis. They existed before and after Snyder's movies. Trying to claim that he is responsible for that is ridiculous, it is not on the artist to make the viewer understand. The Nazis are stupid, why would you want to hold the same base level understanding of a film as them?


The problem is y'all are so focused on the macro. You're not even looking at his actual work, and people keep saying clearly when nobody has shown me that he actually uses Randian ideology. It's all based off of one person and now everybody assumes it's true and works backwards to that.

 

[Raccoon]

They claim everyone in Troopers is evil which implies that's not the case in 300.

that is a whole new sentence. again:

I haven't seen any of those other movies

 

[Harina]

that is a whole new sentence. again:

It's an ongoing discussion. What does half a thought do? It doesn't even add anything to the conversation, especially when you're not actually right.

The military is framed as doing what's necessary for the human race to survive, the bugs are the evil people in the movie. What your commenting on is the subtextual satirical frame, which seemingly no one will afford 300.

 

[Raccoon]

It's an ongoing discussion. What does half a thought do? It doesn't even add anything to the conversation, especially when you're not actually right.

that's fair enough, I suppose. I don't like the implication but I guess that's on me. I'll edit

 

[Weiss]

They claim everyone in Troopers is evil which implies that's not the case in 300. Both the bugs and the Persians are framed as the aggressors. 300 begins with "honorable" eugenics.

I think it's a dumb thing to say, but many liberals, not leftist, have a really bad understanding of how they're utilizing homophobia and it just comes off his homophobic, ie Lindsay Grahams 'outing.' Snyder is a milquetoast Hollywood liberal but he puts PoC voices first, Fisher helped Goyer write his scenes, empowers his female actors and fought the studio so he could hire Momoa.


This is the crux of the issue, liberals need to stop conceding to nazis. They existed before and after Snyder's movies. Trying to claim that he is responsible for that is ridiculous, it is not on the artist to make the viewer understand. The Nazis are stupid, why would you want to hold the same base level understanding of a film as them?


The problem is y'all are so focused on the macro. You're not even looking at his actual work, and people keep saying clearly when nobody has shown me that he actually uses Randian ideology. It's all based off of one person and now everybody assumes it's true and works backwards to that.

It does not "come off" as homophobic, it is homophobic to design as the main villain of an ubermasculine boyish violent power fantasy a big scary Queer monster out to threaten the fragile heterosexuality of its male audience.

Or, what, is Snyder admitting this just "the guy telling it in-universe" too?

 

[Harina]

It does not "come off" as homophobic, it is homophobic to design as the main villain of an ubermasculine boyish violent power fantasy a big scary Queer monster out to threaten the fragile heterosexuality of its male audience.

Or, what, is Snyder admitting this just "the guy telling it in-universe" too?

Yes it is homophobic, but what I mean is, the intention. They think they're allies while using the same rhetoric. I only give Snyder any kind of room because he's very open about his love of the male form and his intentions on being an ally.

Zack Snyder Wrote a '300' Sequel — It's an Epic Gay Love Story

This is the Snyder Cut we really want to see!

www.out.com

Did you know they cancelled his 300 sequel that was going to be a gay love story? Or that he wanted male frontal nudity in Army of Theives to be equitable but was overruled?

But also cheekily, yes, that godking is a figment of imagination to call more people to arms. I mentioned it before, but there are literal scarecrow strawmen doing battle in the movie.



Found it. Last minute or so of the battle.

 

[Harina]

It stinks how reductive discussions about Snyder and his work can be, because he's got some really great subtextual stuff going on. Sucker Punch suffered similarly, with people choosing to believe Snyder was being lurid instead of allowing women to tell their story of what's valued in the cinematic nerd industry built on whedons back, dollhouse is yowza.


3 part q&a on sucker punch.

BvS perfectly casts a tech bro before they were vilified (Eisenberg is Palmer Lucky)with new money, to mirror old money Batman and the power they have with no oversight. By the end of his arc in ZSJL, Batman is a joyful repentant who operates on faith that the world is good.

This is why I was lamenting the loss of leftist ideals in cape stuff. TSS is only lip service, more intrinsically tied to the objective "evil" that is state violence, when the cycle continues, waller now has her own show and she aint good. Black Adam breaks a cycle of oppression for that country.

I'm not saying people can't be bad in cape stuff,I will watch Waller, it's just the canon will not allow for her to learn, ie have those discussions. Batman is the villain of Batman v Superman, but it condemns him and forces him to reflect on who he's targeting with his endless money, ie immigrants and the poor. The Boys is about capes in the real world, but it's framed from Batman's bvs cynical point of view that they have an alterior motive. Batman and Lex were wrong, he will do good no matter the cost to himself because of his love for the world.

I will separately say thank you for not treating me as a mod for this conversation. I'm not upset or annoyed at anyone and I don't want y'all think you have to hold back because of my badge. I'm actually starved for film discussion, but I misjudged that I shouldn't have started it and that's on me.

 

[Phosphorescent Skeleton]

It stinks how reductive discussions about Snyder and his work can be, because he's got some really great subtextual stuff going on. Sucker Punch suffered similarly, with people choosing to believe Snyder was being lurid instead of allowing women to tell their story of what's valued in the cinematic nerd industry built on whedons back, dollhouse is yowza.
This is why I was lamenting the loss of leftist ideals in cape stuff.
I will separately say thank you for not treating me as a mod for this conversation. I'm not upset or annoyed at anyone and I don't want y'all think you have to hold back because of my badge. I'm actually starved for film discussion, but I misjudged that I shouldn't have started it and that's on me.

I think we just have a fundamental disagreement on what "leftist ideals" in cinema are. Its also possible to dislike Snyder and Whedon. Obviously Whedon is a worse person, and worse filmmaker, but that's not an argument for Snyder being good.
Aside from any discussion of the politics of Snyder's film, I also believe that he is an untalented filmmaker.
The last part here is very insulting. You want film discussion, but from everything I've seen you only engage in discussion of massive corporate blockbusters, and accuse people of being racist/homophobic for having criticisms of 300 of all movies.

 

[Mekanos]

You have to be a sex pest to think Snyder is a chud???

 

[YoboD]

God I’m sick of this cinematic universe bullshit. Just give me more stand-alone moves like The Batman that have their own style and identity and don’t all feel like they’ve come straight out of the factory production line.

 

[Phosphorescent Skeleton]

God I’m sick of this cinematic universe bullshit. Just give me more stand-alone moves like The Batman that have their own style and identity and don’t all feel like they’ve come straight out of the factory production line.

Burton Batman films in retrospect the best ones, followed by Batman 66.

 

[YoboD]

Burton Batman films in retrospect the best ones, followed by Batman 66.

Not only have they held up shockingly well, without their success we probably don’t get the DCAU. Other superhero movies could never.

 

[robertman2]

Lego Batman is the best Batman movie and the best animated capeshit movie

 

[Phosphorescent Skeleton]

Not only have they held up shockingly well, without their success we probably don’t get the DCAU. Other superhero movies could never.

Tim Burton was successful because he treated Batman with the proper amount of respect (0).

 

[Mekanos]

Lego Batman is the best Batman movie and the best animated capeshit movie

No love for Spider-Verse?

 

[Harina]

I think we just have a fundamental disagreement on what "leftist ideals" in cinema are. Its also possible to dislike Snyder and Whedon. Obviously Whedon is a worse person, and worse filmmaker, but that's not an argument for Snyder being good.
Aside from any discussion of the politics of Snyder's film, I also believe that he is an untalented filmmaker.
The last part here is very insulting. You want film discussion, but from everything I've seen you only engage in discussion of massive corporate blockbusters, and accuse people of being racist/homophobic for having criticisms of 300 of all movies.

I haven't accused anyone of homophobia? I agreed with someone that what Snyder said was homophobic. I think James Gunn sees black and brown characters as tertiary, but I don't remember saying anybody was racist.

I've challenged people's assertions on 300, because again all I'm seeing is conjecture and I'm the only person who is actually pointing to examples in the art.

Ive yet to see any critical breakdown of a movie on this forum. I've tried to bring up Blockbuster movies because those are the easiest things that people can actually get into. But people can't even read that Iron Man 1 and 2 are the actual objectivist comic book movies, no it's the selfless Superman movie. Most critical talk about movies on the internet is oh "I felt this way." I've tried to get that going in the film thread but It's still the same old.

And it's actually super disingenuous to act like you want to talk about film and then say something completely ignorant like Snyder is untalented. He's the biggest influence on all action movies right now, an undeniable talent in framing, and is beloved as a director by most anybody not on the internet. Despite over a decade of social media gaslighting, his movies have actually been very successful, and they have a huge audience that isn't just white Nazis like y'all want to reduce it down to.

And I was getting insulted and condescended to from the jump about how I don't watch political movies even though I'm an almost 40yr trans black woman from the south. Then I presented evidence within the works. But then everybody just continued with their narratives about how he's bad and I'm ignorant.

So yes I would love to engage and break down film, but frankly no one does it.

You have to be a sex pest to think Snyder is a chud???

Who said this?

This is what I mean. Nobody wants to read anything as soon as they see a single word and all rationale goes out of the head.

that's fair enough, I suppose. I don't like the implication but I guess that's on me. I'll edit

When I use the word empathy I meant empathy, which is a function of what art does. Not trying to call you racist. I'm sorry about the misunderstanding.

 

[Fercho]

Oh boy, the same toxic awful conversation that happens in the "Other place" every time Zack Snyder is discussed in...anything really.

it is fine if you don't like Snyder and his films (maybe even him, as a person, but OK) but every time someone wants to discredit or criticize his films some people can't help to also try to make him one of these right-wing lunatics and trump supporter, and not only to him but also to his fans, which are being immediately classified as part of this crazy cult or even people who enjoys his DCU vision/movies (such my case, people who enjoys his DCU vision and that's it, I don't really like any of his other films other than Dawn of the Dead).

Why is that? it is to bring more credibility to the absolute disgust you have for him and his movies? i could see this tactic used by the RE lunatics (weaponize mundane and non-threatening taste and opinions in order to win internet arguments regarding movies and make the other side look bad) but I didn't think this will happen here.

Zack Snyder DCU films "exist". You don't like them? cool, you love them? also cool, why this kind of discussion always has to come to these kind of posts and attacks? lots of people take this shit very personally and act very venomous and awful every time (And it is with Zack Snyder Particularly, which is the strange thing) . There tons of openly racist and and problematic directors out there and their body of work show their world's vision as well such as S. Craig Zahler and yet here we are hating on superman for his Jesus complex.

Personally, the saddest thing of the whole ordeal is that WB still found the way to throw Ray Fisher under the bus and nobody is really talking about this.

 

[robertman2]

No love for Spider-Verse?

Spider-Verse is good

Lego Batman is just better

 

[Ramune]

Ive yet to see any critical breakdown of a movie on this forum. I've tried to bring up Blockbuster movies because those are the easiest things that people can actually get into. But people can't even read that Iron Man 1 and 2 are the actual objectivist comic book movies, no it's the selfless Superman movie. Most critical talk about movies on the internet is oh "I felt this way." I've tried to get that going in the film thread but It's still the same old.

I like the movie thread and I think there are a lot of posters there with good insight and varied taste in movies. I'm really not sure what these comments achieve and I'm pretty insulted as someone who has posted in there. I'll stick to Letterboxd in the future, thanks.

 

[Harina]

I like the movie thread and I think there are a lot of posters there with good insight and varied taste in movies. I'm really not sure what these comments achieve and I'm pretty insulted as someone who has posted in there. I'll stick to Letterboxd in the future, thanks.

I appreciate your candidness, but I have to be honest. The thread really hasn't been a discussion. It's like you said, recommendations based off of how it affected you. But nobody can debate or analyse your feelings.

I posted in the OP that I wanted to make it more open for everybody to actually try to join in discussing what makes film art , hence the current title, but I had one or two takers and that was the old thread.

I personally haven't posted lately because there's so much stuff to watch, and I'm playing catch up before the Oscars. I can't join in on stuff I haven't seen, so I've just been trying to get that done.

Here's a small take, Thor 4 is a Christian movie.

I'm gonna post a bunch in a little bit, and I'd like for you to join, but I understand if you don't.

 

[Mekanos]

Who said this?

This is what I mean. Nobody wants to read anything as soon as they see a single word and all rationale goes out of the head.

When you open your argument with this:

I'm not going to have a drawn out discussion on objectivism, so I'm just going to give you an example from his latest movie to show you why that's made-up conjecture from a sex pest* that you're just repeating like truth.

Personally it doesn't make me think you're coming at this angle from good faith. Why would I engage in any discussion when this is your framing? You're already likening critics of Snyder to a sex pest, whether or not that was your intention.

It's pretty clear reading your other posts we are not gonna see eye to eye on Snyder, and most certainly not as a guy who makes "leftist" movies. But at least I'd hope the discussion would start off on a better foot than that.

 

[Phosphorescent Skeleton]

I haven't accused anyone of homophobia? I agreed with someone that what Snyder said was homophobic. I think James Gunn sees black and brown characters as tertiary, but I don't remember saying anybody was racist.

I've challenged people's assertions on 300, because again all I'm seeing is conjecture and I'm the only person who is actually pointing to examples in the art.

Ive yet to see any critical breakdown of a movie on this forum. I've tried to bring up Blockbuster movies because those are the easiest things that people can actually get into. But people can't even read that Iron Man 1 and 2 are the actual objectivist comic book movies, no it's the selfless Superman movie. Most critical talk about movies on the internet is oh "I felt this way." I've tried to get that going in the film thread but It's still the same old.

And it's actually super disingenuous to act like you want to talk about film and then say something completely ignorant like Snyder is untalented. He's the biggest influence on all action movies right now, an undeniable talent in framing, and is beloved as a director by most anybody not on the internet. Despite over a decade of social media gaslighting, his movies have actually been very successful, and they have a huge audience that isn't just white Nazis like y'all want to reduce it down to.

And I was getting insulted and condescended to from the jump about how I don't watch political movies even though I'm an almost 40yr trans black woman from the south. Then I presented evidence within the works. But then everybody just continued with their narratives about how he's bad and I'm ignorant.

So yes I would love to engage and break down film, but frankly no one does it.

Who said this?

This is what I mean. Nobody wants to read anything as soon as they see a single word and all rationale goes out of the head.



When I use the word empathy I meant empathy, which is a function of what art does. Not trying to call you racist. I'm sorry about the misunderstanding.

You keep seeming to think that criticism of Snyder is defending other movies? I agree that Iron Man 1 and 2 are hideously bad movies.
Also, yeag, reacting emotionally, feeling ways about movies, is normal, thats what art does.
Never thought I'd have my intelligence, my capacity to engage in art insulted and criticized like this because I hate Zack Snyder movies. You have been consistently condescending to everyone here, implyimg that nobody is smart enough to understand your arguments or why Synder is an artist of left wing cinema.
Claiming he is popular, influential, and well liked is not a defense of him as an artist by the way.

 

[Harina]

When you open your argument with this:



Personally it doesn't make me think you're coming at this angle from good faith. Why would I engage in any discussion when this is your framing? You're already likening critics of Snyder to a sex pest, whether or not that was your intention.

It's pretty clear reading your other posts we are not gonna see eye to eye on Snyder, and most certainly not as a guy who makes "leftist" movies. But at least I'd hope the discussion would start off on a better foot than that.

Devin Faraci was patient zero for Snyder being an objectivist. Based off of the "maybe" in MoS. Since then it's been repeated without critically analyzing what this would actually mean and show up in his work as. Instead, it's been a bunch of working backwards to try to prove it's right. The second you start pointing out these inconsistencies you're the unruly one.

To prove this, I actually posted a direct example from the movie that disputes the idea that he believes in objectivism. I thought that would be enough because I thought y'all would actually read what I said. Instead it was called nonsense.

You keep seeming to think that criticism of Snyder is defending other movies? I agree that Iron Man 1 and 2 are hideously bad movies.
Also, yeag, reacting emotionally, feeling ways about movies, is normal, thats what art does.
Never thought I'd have my intelligence, my capacity to engage in art insulted and criticized like this because I hate Zack Snyder movies. You have been consistently condescending to everyone here, implyimg that nobody is smart enough to understand your arguments or why Synder is an artist of left wing cinema.
Claiming he is popular, influential, and well liked is not a defense of him as an artist by the way.

My initial statement was shouted down over something That has been repeated for the last decade with no actual proof in the art. So I brought receipts. I don't have to defend him when what you're saying doesn't hold. Here's the thing, everybody thinks that they are just the smartest, that because it's a superhero movie they can automatically twig on everything, but sometimes people miss stuff. The fact that people will not even allow themselves to try to learn and instead see it as me condescending

 

[Clov]

So yes I would love to engage and break down film, but frankly no one does it.

What exactly are you looking for? Phos herself posted a wonderful write-up of Obayashi's film, Bound for the Hills, The Mountains, and the Seacoast. That talked about more than just how it made her feel, but the cinematography, the themes and political leanings of the film... you even liked the post yourself! If this is not engaging with the film, what are you looking for out of people?

I lurk in the film thread mostly, but I can see that there's people there interested in far more than typical Hollywood films. If you do watch more than just that, why not talk about it with them? You claim that you only talk about big blockbusters because that's what most people in the thread have seen, but why not engage with people talking about other kinds of movies, why not start a conversation about those other kinds of movies in the first place? There's plenty of people interested in world cinema and independent cinema there. Maybe they have seen some of the films you think they haven't?

Please note that I am posting here of my own volition; I am not attempting to engage in dogpiling, I am not trying to be rude. I'm posting because I found this comment to be dismissive and contradictory to what some people here actually do in the film thread.

 

[Mekanos]

Devin Faraci was patient zero for Snyder being an objectivist. Based off of the "maybe" in MoS. Since then it's been repeated without critically analyzing what this would actually mean and show up in his work as. Instead, it's been a bunch of working backwards to try to prove it's right. The second you start pointing out these inconsistencies you're the unruly one.

To prove this, I actually posted a direct example from the movie that disputes the idea that he believes in objectivism. I thought that would be enough because I thought y'all would actually read what I said. Instead it was called nonsense.

You aren't actually addressing what I'm saying. I'm saying opening your argument with a line that implicitly connects criticism of Snyder to a sex pest doesn't make me feel like I want to engage.

I don't care if you like Zack Snyder's movies (even if I disagree times a thousand about their content) but can you not see the issue here even a little bit?

 

[Harina]

What exactly are you looking for? Phos herself posted a wonderful write-up of Obayashi's film, Bound for the Hills, The Mountains, and the Seacoast. That talked about more than just how it made her feel, but the cinematography, the themes and political leanings of the film... you even liked the post yourself! If this is not engaging with the film, what are you looking for out of people?

I lurk in the film thread mostly, but I can see that there's people there interested in far more than typical Hollywood films. If you do watch more than just that, why not talk about it with them? You claim that you only talk about big blockbusters because that's what most people in the thread have seen, but why not engage with people talking about other kinds of movies, why not start a conversation about those other kinds of movies in the first place? There's plenty of people interested in world cinema and independent cinema there. Maybe they have seen some of the films you think they haven't?

Please note that I am posting here of my own volition; I am not attempting to engage in dogpiling, I am not trying to be rude. I'm posting because I found this comment to be dismissive and contradictory to what some people here actually do in the film thread.

You're right. I liked that post because it was great, but yeah I didn't post because I can't respond to it without seeing it.

You aren't actually addressing what I'm saying. I'm saying opening your argument with a line that implicitly connects criticism of Snyder to a sex pest doesn't make me feel like I want to engage.

I don't care if you like Zack Snyder's movies (even if I disagree times a thousand about their content) but can you not see the issue here even a little bit?

You're right, I came in too hot, but it's a fact that's stuck with me. Folks spread that stuff with out thought.

Folks, @Phosphorescent Skeleton

I apologize fulll stop.

 

[Harina]

As you can see the last several years have gotten to me, which isn't an excuse to be out of pocket.

And I don't want to diminish anything y'all have posted, it's on me to watch and join in the discussion.