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It’s doesn’t make sense is what it is.
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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)
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Alovon11
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Really don't know why they wouldn't advertise at least higher-resolutions in games when docked by turning the upscaling on.
Maybe the upscaling isn't good enough for "Nintendo's Seal of Approval"?
D
Deleted member 645
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Who knows with Nintendo. It’s obviously this isn’t a normal dock. Something is up and one day they will fill us in on it.
OP
OP
Digital Foundry mentions that the AI upscaling already available to the Nvidia Shield TV (2019), which runs on the Tegra X1+, doesn't support content that runs at over 30 fps. So I suppose that's one reason.
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Although this is related to the Nintendo Switch, but not to the DLSS model*, I think I found some comparisons between Jaguar and the Cortex-A57 that I think @Look over there might find interesting.
I have no idea why he's even mentioning LAN there. If I understand correctly, the realtek chip shouldn't be involved in that at all.
Not sure if the Switch OLED USB chip has been identified, yet, but at least on the older models, there are definitely drawbacks to enabling 4k output. Whether or not said drawbacks are acceptable depends on the particulars of how DP alt mode works when all 4 lanes are used for video and what Nintendo considers acceptable for Ethernet/other USB devices.
Alternatively, maybe they're saving it for when Dane is released to avoid confusion. Without any actual 4k content to display, the benefit is only really clear if you're familiar with the double scaling problem.
I don't think that sort of scaling is really relevant in this scenario. If anything, it would just be doing basic upscaling.
OP
OP
Although there's not yet any official confirmation, I feel fairly certain Nintendo's using a PI3USB31532 chip, a USB 3.2 Gen 2 (or USB 3.1 Gen 2)/DisplayPort 1.4 crossbar switch chip, for the OLED model (and presumably the DLSS model* as well), considering that RTD2172N's a DisplayPort 1.4 to HDMI 2.0b converter chip.
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I wouldn't necessarily assume the Switch OLED is 4k ready just because its dock is. The system is still advertised as only supporting up to 1080p output after all.
OP
OP
I'm not saying that the OLED model in actuality supports 4K. I'm simply making an educated speculation on what type of USB chip the OLED model uses.
That article is out of date. Since firmware update 8.2, the 2019 Shield Pro can perform AI upscaling up to 4K 60fps. The question is, can the TX1 walk and chew gum at the time (rendering game plus AI upscaling)? I highly doubt it because no other Shields but the 2019 Pro model is capable of AI upscaling to 60fps, suggesting that it's rather demanding. The Dane Switch, on the other hand, probably will be capable of rendering game while adding this spatial AI upscaling simultaneously. It can be an option for developers who don't need or support DLSS (temporal AI upscaling).
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OP
OP
Ah I see, many thanks. And considering most Nintendo Switch games render well below 1080p in TV mode, I'm not sure if there's any benefit of supporting 4K upscaling.
Games rendering below 1080p is actually exactly where the main benefit lies (because you'd get suboptimal scaling on a 4k TV unless the resolution integer scales to 1080p), but it's kind of a hard to advertise benefit.
OP
OP
Fair enough. My guess is that Nintendo wants to avoid confusing consumers, which is why the max resolution for TV mode for the OLED model is still 1080p 60 Hz, despite having the hardware to theoretically support up to 4K 60 Hz.
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I wish we knew exactly what was going on.
As a few others already raised, these statements are very sus.
- "a new dock could contain the DLSS chip": Categorically false.
- "RTD2172N [...] is technically capable of 4K upscaling": There is no evidence of this. All the RTD2172L and RTD2172U specs that the Nancy Drews of Famiboards, Pipeline, and ERA could find mention no upscaling capability. And AFAIK, no OEM products based on RTD2172L or U can upscale either. Unless the RTD2172N is somehow significantly more advanced than its siblings, I highly doubt it.
- Even the next-gen RTD2173 and RTD2183 don't seem upscaling capable either, based on the chip specs and OEM products info available online.
- "the chip was customized to support LAN instead": Wat? Even Realtek's own reference design for USB-C dock requires a separate IC (RTL8153) for ethernet, despite having a next-gen RTD2183 onboard.
Unless there are some major clues that I'm missing, all signs point to a straightforward DP-to-HDMI converter. If a simple DP-to-HDMI chip can upscale (say nothing of the resulting quality), there would be no market for products such as mClassic ($99), HDfury Linker ($179), or Decimator MD-HX ($295).
Edit: I forgot for a minute that Decimator MD-HX doesn't even support 4K. That'd be the Decimator 12G-CROSS for $495; thank you very much.
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This is definitely seeming like a case where the limits of what can be determined via datamining are showing. Or at the very least, they don't seem really understand how the dock works.As a few others already raised, these statements are very sus.
- "a new dock could contain the DLSS chip": Categorically false.
- "RTD2172N [...] is technically capable of 4K upscaling": There is no evidence of this. All the RTD2172L and RTD2172U specs that the Nancy Drews of Famiboards, Pipeline, and ERA could find mention no upscaling capability. And AFAIK, no OEM products based on RTD2172L or U can upscale either. Unless the RTD2172N is somehow significantly more advanced than its siblings, I highly doubt it.
- Even the next-gen RTD2173 and RTD2183 don't seem upscaling capable either, based on the chip specs and OEM products info available online.
- "the chip was customized to support LAN instead": Wat? Even Realtek's own reference design for USB-C dock requires a separate IC (RTL8153) for ethernet, despite having a next-gen RTD2183 onboard.
Unless there are some major clues that I'm missing, all signs point to a straightforward DP-to-HDMI converter. If a simple DP-to-HDMI chip can upscale (say nothing of the resulting quality), there would be no market for products such as mClassic ($99), HDfury Linker ($179), or Decimator MD-HX ($295).
OP
OP
To be fair, Mike Heskin never said the OLED model's dock could have a DLSS chip. It was the person who Mike Heskin was replying to that incorrectly said that the OLED model's dock could have a DLSS chip.
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I think we should all go Occam's Razor on this one guys. It seems to me at least that the Dock can upscale to 4k using proprietary Nintendo upscaling technology. All Nintendo has to do is do a firmware update to activate it. Remember, Nintendo is the same company that used propietary wireless technology in the Wavebird.
CocaFormula
Cappy
So basically all we can say is that the OLED model has a dock that could output (not upscale!) a 4K signal but the feature is neither active nor supported by the actual Switch (which anyway won't be ever able to output anything 4K except for videos maybe).
I can think of these possible scenarios:
- the new dock chip was just a cheaper/easier sourced part in 2021;
- aula was supposed to include some 4K capabilities that were scrapped;
- a 4K revision is or was being worked and the OLED dock was designed to be used with this future model in advance (via firmware update) so that you can "switch" seamlessly if you own multiple docks.
Considering how many reports we had of the latter, I consider this to be the most likely scenario.
This is the contrary of Occam's razor though? Why would they have a feature and possibly a ne technology ready and NOT enable/advertise it at the launch of the revision? Besides, another user is reporting that this chip does NOT upscale to 4K, it just supports 4K resolution over DP->HDMI. But the rest of the Switch is still powered by Mariko which we know is not capable to reach 4K.
I can think of these possible scenarios:
- the new dock chip was just a cheaper/easier sourced part in 2021;
- aula was supposed to include some 4K capabilities that were scrapped;
- a 4K revision is or was being worked and the OLED dock was designed to be used with this future model in advance (via firmware update) so that you can "switch" seamlessly if you own multiple docks.
Considering how many reports we had of the latter, I consider this to be the most likely scenario.
This is the contrary of Occam's razor though? Why would they have a feature and possibly a ne technology ready and NOT enable/advertise it at the launch of the revision? Besides, another user is reporting that this chip does NOT upscale to 4K, it just supports 4K resolution over DP->HDMI. But the rest of the Switch is still powered by Mariko which we know is not capable to reach 4K.
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I just think that Nintendo is doing research and finding out that more and more people are buying 4K TVs and is futureproofing the OLED Switch to upscale an image using their own proprietary version of DLSS.
OP
OP
I wonder if the OLED model and/or the DLSS model*, and OLED model's dock and/or the DLSS model*'s dock, will be 100% compliant with USB-PD specifications, considering the EU's mandating that all future mobile devices, including handheld video game consoles, be 100% compliant with USB-PD specifications.
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Because not enough people have 4k TVs yet. You must also remember that Nintendo kept silent for years about the Memory expansion slot on the N64.
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No, nothing supports the idea that the dock can upscale to 4k.
Rather, it seems the OLED dock is capable of simply outputting 4k/60fps which was not the case with the original Switch.
The only two conclusions you can come to here are:
1) they want to enable the Switch tablet to output 4k/60fps at some point, most likely in a new model
2) the DP to HDMI chip they're using now is simply cheaper than the old one which wasn't capable of 4k/60fps
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But there are many questions that no one is really asking like....
(1) Can the regular Switch's Tegra chip have 4k upscale ability from day 1, but Nintendo did not see it necessary to use that feature at the time because most people have 1080p TVs.
(2) The Switch's Tegra chip is custom. What is custom about it and does that have anything to do with 4k upscaling?
(3) The new chip that is in the dock.... has anyone X-rayed it and look at it? How are we sure what is 100% in that chip?
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1) Who knows, maybe they disabled it for that reason. But it's moot because the USB-C connection between the OG Switch and dock and DP to HDMI chip in the original dock are not capable of outputting 4k/60fps to a TV. There simply isn't enough bandwidth available for that much data.
2) Teardowns have indicated that it is not actually custom. The custom features are really likely only referring to the software side, like the NVN API.
3) We know what's in the chip because the chip has a label, and people have looked up what the chip with that label does. And where it is sold. You can probably buy it yourself.
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(1) That's the OG dock. The new dock can do HDMI 2.0 right? So.... maybe the Switch had 4k upscaling ability from day 1.
(2) Why would the custom features be only on the software side when they specifically said the chip was custom?
So Nintendo lied again? Why is Nintendo the only console maker that's "lying"?(3) Again, has anyone X-rayed it? What if there is something hidden inside it?
And one more thing, isn't it demonstrated that the Switch is heavily future-proofed? Wasn't it at launch one of a very few consumer devices that used USB-C?
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1) Yes I was referring to the OG dock there because I thought that was your question. I'm not sure I understand the question now.(1) That's the OG dock. The new dock can do HDMI 2.0 right? So.... maybe the Switch had 4k upscaling ability from day 1.
(2) Why would the custom features be only on the software side when they specifically said the chip was custom?
(3) Again, has anyone X-rayed it? What if there is something hidden inside it?
2) All of them lie, all the time. Nobody claims it's only Nintendo.
3) How exactly would they put something hidden in a chip that they purchased from Realtek? Chips don't work that way, you can't add something else inside of a fully packaged chip you've bought from a vendor.
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(1) Either the OLED dock has upscaling ability by itself, or if not, the Switch has upscaling ability from day 1, but needs a new dock to make it work. IMO, either one or the other is true.
(2) So Nintendo lied about SPECS? There is no way you will convince me of that. Why would they do that? Nintendo doesn't care about specs. It also doesn't make sense for them to lie about something so trivial. We wont agree on this one, so I wont continue any further.
(3) I'm not denying its a Realtek chip. Is simply saying has anyone X-rayed and looked if there is something hidden in there? It may have the same labeling, but has anyone digged deeper? I guess the answer is "No" right?
OP
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3) No, since most people don't have the OLED model.
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I hope that someone does it eventually. I also hope someone confirms the SOC in the OLED Switch itself is the exact same same (transistor to transistor) as the one in the regular Switch.
lemonfresh
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wrong thread
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I still hold firm to the belief that if the new dock is capable of 4K60, this firmware can be activated in a month or two between Black Friday and Christmas with a Twitter direct when they announce Netflix and co. streaming services are coming to Switch, and will be able to play 4K movies (recommended with a LAN cable to ensure maximum data transfer).
Best part is it requires no additional processing power on the the OG or OLED Switch to achieve it, it simply works with any new OLED dock.
Best part is it requires no additional processing power on the the OG or OLED Switch to achieve it, it simply works with any new OLED dock.
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1) The OLED dock does not have upscaling ability, we've been over this. The chip inside it is a very known quantity and upscaling video is not one of the things it can do. The original Switch's TX1s should be able to upscale to 4k but the question at this point is whether there's enough bandwidth in the USB-C port of the OG Switch to send 4k/60fps video to the new OLED dock. I think it can be possible but they'd have to disable some of the existing USB functionality of the dock.
2) I don't recall Nintendo themselves ever even calling it a custom chip. It was Nvidia who called it a custom tegra processor.
3) AFAIK you are correct, nobody has done this. And I very much doubt anybody ever will because it's pointless to X-Ray (or scan with some other microscopy) a known chip from a very well known vendor.
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Have people forgotten that Nintendo has a history of futureproofing their hardware and staying silent about it? The N64 memory expansion wasn't marketed till much later... same with the progressive scanning capabilities of the Gamecube and Nintendo did't boast about the USB-C port in the Switch when it launched.
OP
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A Nintendo spokesperson explicitly told the Verge that the "Nintendo Switch (OLED model) does not have a new CPU, or more RAM, from previous Nintendo Switch models."
Of course, it's your decision whether or not to believe Nintendo.
CocaFormula
Cappy
Nintendo is not THAT out of touch and the N64 expansion port was in plain sight, not hidden. It's 2021, 4K TVs are ubiquitous and the competition has been targeting them for years now. IF they had this capability, it doesn't make any sense for them to withhold it, and nothing similar ever happened in the past.
Also, DLSS or similar upscaling technology is not something that they can enable "for free" on old chips (stock Tegra chips, nonetheless). It requires computing power that the current Switch models simply cannot spare or muster.
No offense, but it seems you are trying to evoke unlikely scenarios based solely on your feelings/opinions and not on facts or understanding of the tech involved.
lemonfresh
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Switch OLED looking good
Raccoon
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You guys can't be doing this when Nintendo just said there aren't 4K dev kits come on
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I'm not talking about CPU or GPU. I'm talking about other potentially hidden features. It's curiosity in us that drives us to look deeper right?
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CocaFormula
Cappy
I guess it's technically possible but I highly doubt it. Nintendo hasn't pivoted the Switch family towards media consumption in years and I found it very difficult to believe it that they would do it suddenly with an afterthought update to a model released few months before.
Not sure why you are discarding the simplest explanations
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(1) Do you acknowledge that something secret could be built into it? Wouldn't you or someone else be at least interested to find out? I would.
(2)
So Nvidia said it was custom. I wonder what is custom about? Maybe its the CPU because IIRC, Nintendo has been using ARM chips before the Tegra line of SOCs. Maybe Nintendo told them to modify the CPU? Who knows. 
(3) That SUCKS. Too bad if nobody want to look deeper just in case.
OP
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Nintendo explicitly mentions "NVIDIA Custom Tegra processor" in the specs for every model in the Nintendo Switch family.
I wasn't talking about the 4K dev kits in that instance though. I was talking about Nintendo's statements about the OLED model's SoC.
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I just really want my basic media services at this pointI guess it's technically possible but I highly doubt it. Nintendo hasn't pivoted the Switch family towards media consumption in years and I found it very difficult to believe it that they would do it suddenly with an afterthought update to a model released few months before.
Not sure why you are discarding the simplest explanations
It's no secret that the Switch OS is extremely barebones and still in dire need of fleshed out service updates. It's not as though it needs to be made so feature dense that the system slows to a crawl like Wii U loading times, but just enough that I can quickly switch from a game to Netflix on the same console (and also have the option for downloading shows for offline viewing like smartphones and tablets are capable of).If there were ever any reason to get the likes of Netflix, Prime and Crave on Switch, it's now when they're capable of looking their best. When they start releasing trailers of games that are Switch Pro Ready™ and want to sell you a fourth console for your one-person household, YouTube will be able to show these games off at 4K resolution
Raccoon
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You're still making an argumentative appeal to Nintendo's authority when they literally just lied (assuming the 4K dev kits exist). These may be different scenarios, and it is obviously in their interest to lie about unannounced products rather than announced ones, but I don't accept this notion that Nintendo saying something ought to be taken definitively when the continued existence of the DLSS model is predicated on Nintendo having just lied
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A shortage of manufacturing capacity is still a shortage, but we are discussing semantics at this point. And it’s the boring kind of discussion
2) “Custom chip by Nvidia” is not a spec. It’s PR speech.
3) Companies are very serious about what they sell/buy to/from manufacturers. And designing a chip (even basic ones) is not easy or cheap. If the label on the chip says something, then it’s that. There are no “secret sauces” on gaming hardware (even if made from 11 devs and spices), or things hidden for use years later because putting things on the silicon cost money (and time) and the margins are thin. It doesn’t make sense financially.
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Dont do that.
Dont go there. Leave the personal insults to the other site. And saying "no offense" doesn't make it better. Stay on topic.Couldn't they have that 4 k upscaling feature (customized) built into hardware from the beginning though?
I'm saying they had the port there from the launch and did not say anything about it till years later. It was "hidden" in that sense. I even remember people at launch at the time saying it was another useless and unused port Nintendo built int the N64.
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While spirited discussion is absolutely encouraged and enjoyed, there have been a few complaints about the tone of this discussion. The staff have a few key ideas we would like to vocalize to help everyone understand each other correctly and hear each other's points in the way they were intended.
- When expressing a personal view, please try your best to use language that does not present it as objective fact, or that mocks others' thoughts.
- If you are invested enough to engage in the discussion in the first place, please try to respect others' time. Even if you intend only to leave your opinion and move on, please try and back it up and with some thought. If you only have a single line sentence to share, please consider whether it will be a meaningful contribution to the discussion.
- Please try to refrain from attacking reputable news sources. We're all mature enough to engage in discussion about rumors with the understanding that inaccuracies may reveal themselves over time; changes in plans occur, and there are many variables we will never be privy to. Please let staff know if there is a legitimate problem considering a news source, such as a banned or unknown sources.
Most importantly, please try to understand and listen to each other in good faith and try your best to resolve disagreements within the context of the debate. Staff are always here to support you in instances that go further than that. If you find yourself reacting emotionally to another's comment, either bring it to the staff via the report button, or step away from the thread for a little while.
Thank you. And please keep up the great discussion!
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1) Built into what? The OLED dock? Or the original Switch? The original Switch has been out long enough and torn down enough times (and hacked many times) to the extent that we know very, very well what's inside of it.(1) Do you acknowledge that something secret could be built into it? Wouldn't you or someone else be at least interested to find out? I would.
(2)
(3) That SUCKS. Too bad if nobody want to look deeper just in case.
2) AFAIK nothing about the physical hardware of the original TX1 in the Switch is custom. It is the same TX1 used in Shield products, they all have the A53 CPU cores physically disabled.
Ah I thought they were referring to the PR. Regarding the spec sheet, "NVIDIA custom tegra processor" and "Tegra X1" are not really incompatible.
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The N64 memory expansion was a port hidden in plain sight. And it was that, a port for more RAM. The N64 didn’t have hidden RAM that you activated. You had to buy the RAM and stick it on the console.
It was known that the gamecube did progressive scan but the box came with a composite cable incapable of 480p. You had to buy the component cables.
OP
OP
I personally doubt it since Nvidia mentioned that the Tegra X1+, which is used on the Nintendo Switch (2019) and the OLED model, has the same feature set and the same Maxwell based GPU as the Tegra X1.I'm not talking about CPU or GPU. I'm talking about other potentially hidden features. It's curiosity in us that drives us to look deeper right?
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A shortage of manufacturing capacity is still a shortage, but we are discussing semantics at this point. And it’s the boring kind of discussion
2) “Custom chip by Nvidia” is not a spec. It’s PR speech.
3) Companies are very serious about what they sell/buy to/from manufacturers. And designing a chip (even basic ones) is not easy or cheap. If the label on the chip says something, then it’s that. There are no “secret sauces” on gaming hardware (even if made from 11 devs and spices), or things hidden for use years later because putting things on the silicon cost money (and time) and the margins are thin. It doesn’t make sense financially.
Wait a minute? Doent custom mean that there was a change somewhere? Like a Apple ARM chip and a Qualcomm ARM chip is custom.
I said either built into the OLED dock, or, 4k upscaling (customized) was built into original Switch from 2017. This is probably why the oled Switch can fit perfectly in the OLED dock and the OLED dock is firmware upgradable.
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