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Discussion Digital Foundry || Pokémon Scarlet / Pokémon Violet - DF Tech Review - Incredibly Poor Visuals + Performance

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Christo750 said:
How true is it that Nintendo is actually giving refunds for S/V? I've only seen a couple of sites corroborate the same source.

If it's true and starts to gain traction, the hammer is 100% coming down. Especially for a new Pokemon generation.
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There is nothing there. Nintendo will refund a game on drastic situations (for example: "Oh my child bought this game by accident") and even that happens rarely.

Plus even if true, the probability of gaining traction is almost 0. The audience for this game is way too large
 
Phantom Thief said:
Nintendo offers all accounts one digital refund. Some people used theirs to get a refund for S/V. That’s it. That’s all there is to it.
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SirArthur said:
There is nothing there. Nintendo will refund a game on drastic situations (for example: "Oh my child bought this game by accident") and even that happens rarely.

Plus even if true, the probability of gaining traction is almost 0. The audience for this game is way too large
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Wow that's really shoddy reporting. Okay, business as usual I guess. Praying for a patch lol.
 
Christo750 said:
Wow that's really shoddy reporting. Okay, business as usual I guess. Praying for a patch lol.
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Yeah. I think its more the weirdness of return policy for consoles. Like I think Microsoft is the most lenient. And there is a good chance people arent regularly returning name from Sony and Nintendo (thats why the CP situation was insane).

Same, the thing I want patched first is the shadows lol.
 
Aside from the bugs during battles, I don't have major problems with the performance, the frame rate is poor sometimes but most of the time I don't notice anything.

What bothers me I'd the regression from Legends. I'm not talking about the absence of mechanics from Legends, I understand they're different games and not everything needs to be carried over. I'm referring to the mechanics that they DID brought from Legends but work much worse in SV, even if it's releasing 10 months later. Throwing a pokeball at a wild pokémon doesn't feel right, it take like two second for your pokémon to come out of the ball while Legends got that right the first try. It's little details like that that Legends did so much better and SV feels like a regression. Still, it's good to have the better battle system back and to have new Pokémon, so the game compensates. But it is frustrating in the sense that it could have been do much better, and they already know how to do that because they've done it before.
 
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It really is inexcusable to launch a game in this state, circumstances or history be damned. Any other major developer would be raked over the coals for releasing a game like this. It's also such an own goal too when they rushed out three mainline games in twelve months when they could have just held their horses and given both Arceus and S/V more development time.

Big discussions and changes are needed at TPC and Gamefreak now as they've officially run out of excuses. They can't just keep on churning games out at the same pace they did a decade ago, it's simply not feasible. Go back to the drawing board and overhaul the strategy for Pokemon as a franchise, because if they keep going the way they have been, things will only get worse.
 
We shouldn't be too harsh with these young dev teams, they don't have a lot of money, it's first and foremost about passion and dedication.

😏
 
I know saying ‘first-party Nintendo game’ gets all the nerds coming out of the woodwork to correct you, but honestly to most people it is a first party game. Pokemon and Nintendo have always been associated. Casual fans who are the majority of players likely can’t tell the difference between GameFreak, Creatures, The Pokemon Company, and Nintendo. Even if Nintendo had no input on development they’re probably going to take some heat for the state of this release.
 
You'd think at this point Nintendo would gather all the techniques developed for their first party games and make it mandatory for first party devs to use them (like how XC3 manages to look much better than this).
 
Jencks said:
2fps is literal PowerPoint territory

I can't believe this game was allowed to be shipped. Straight up embarrassment.
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im more in the 30seconds per slide instead of 2 slides per second, but im assume that we have different presentation styles =P
 
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NarohDethan said:
You'd think at this point Nintendo would gather all the techniques developed for their first party games and make it mandatory for first party devs to use them (like how XC3 manages to look much better than this).
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Those techniques still require time and effort. With Gamefreak's current release schedule, I doubt you'd see much improvement
 
Leo said:
Aside from the bugs during battles, I don't have major problems with the performance, the frame rate is poor sometimes but most of the time I don't notice anything.

What bothers me I'd the regression from Legends. I'm not talking about the absence of mechanics from Legends, I understand they're different games and not everything needs to be carried over. I'm referring to the mechanics that they DID brought from Legends but work much worse in SV, even if it's releasing 10 months later. Throwing a pokeball at a wild pokémon doesn't feel right, it take like two second for your pokémon to come out of the ball while Legends got that right the first try. It's little details like that that Legends did so much better and SV feels like a regression. Still, it's good to have the better battle system back and to have new Pokémon, so the game compensates. But it is frustrating in the sense that it could have been do much better, and they already know how to do that because they've done it before.
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Yeah, so many mechanics, even if they are kinda the same feel worse. Switch to battle is slower and takes a second, aiming at Pokémon often doesn't work properly, for the aiming to work i have to almost be ON the Pokémon. some menus feels lower and clunkier. And so many more.
Im also missing the movement of the trainer during battles.
 
Raccoon said:
the pokemon multimedia machine has destroyed the quality of the games and that makes me sad

as always it's the fault of anime, the devil's medium
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It's not clear that there even is an anime this time. The Gen 8 anime is still running its final episodes (which is already unusual, to my recollection) with no real indication of something new coming in to replace it afterwards, yet.
 
Raccoon said:
but will they? surely eventually the technical shortcomings will be too great for people to ignore and they'll skip the next one
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If the next game is on Drake they could keep the games looking just as they are, brute force performance to 1080p 30 and pass the minimum acceptable bar for most people. It could still be a janky mess and visually behind other first-party titles but at least it will be a locked framerate. 😵‍💫
 
The tech issues hit the game even in places that you wouldn't expect. Navigating the boxes hasn't been this bad since the GCN spin-offs ages ago running on optical discs, and I honestly think SV might be even worse than those were. Hopefully patches will be able to at least iron out some of the more serious issues.
 
Pokemaniac said:
The tech issues hit the game even in places that you wouldn't expect. Navigating the boxes hasn't been this bad since the GCN spin-offs ages ago running on optical discs, and I honestly think SV might be even worse than those were. Hopefully patches will be able to at least iron out some of the more serious issues.
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Yeah, this. Obviously, the visuals don't look great but everything is sluggish from top to bottom.
 
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Raccoon said:
but will they? surely eventually the technical shortcomings will be too great for people to ignore and they'll skip the next one
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Reviews generally say the opposite. People love it in spite of the shortcomings, yes I bet they will.
 
Raccoon said:
I guess so, insofar as their impact to the schedule and investment

they simply are not equipped to make good games this fast
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Even companies bigger then GF struggle with this fast of a turn out. It’s why Ubisoft changed it after AC:Unity. COD is currently in that phase now with some rumblings about a change on schedule. While those games are more technically advanced then Pokémon; I don’t think studios can really get away with this type of development anymore due to the way games are now.

For Pokémon it would have to be a combination of: schedule change, engine change, model change. I would say all three but the first two are the more important ones.
 
Serif said:
If the next game is on Drake they could keep the games looking just as they are, brute force performance to 1080p 30 and pass the minimum acceptable bar for most people. It could still be a janky mess and visually behind other first-party titles but at least it will be a locked framerate. 😵‍💫
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‘Sun and Moon double battles will run so much better on next generation hardware’
 
KingOnion said:
‘Sun and Moon double battles will run so much better on next generation hardware’
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I did say 'could' and not 'would'.

Double battles did run better on New 3DS hardware. It was still bad, but it aligns with my expectations that the most I expect from next-gen Pokemon is locked 1080p 30 instead of the dynamic 1080p 30 this game is targetting. A slight improvement.
 
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KingOnion said:
‘Sun and Moon double battles will run so much better on next generation hardware’
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To their credit, Sword and Shield did clean up the performance issues Sun and Moon had, albeit seemingly mostly as a result of the hardware catching up with what they were trying to force a 3DS to do.

There does seem to at least be a chance of serious improvement for Gen 10, as GF has seemingly been hiring explicitly to improve their tech. If they can also clean up their scheduling issues, they could maybe actually make a graceful hardware transition for once.
 
As I said in the other thread, it's absolutely baffling that they outsourced the remakes not to give themselves more time but to put out more games, all of which are technically deficient in some way. Even Arceus, the arguably best one in this regard, could have used a few more months to fix some of the wird graphical peculiarities it shipped with. SV should have been scheduled for 2023 from the very beginning and I'm sure it wouldn't have killed them or the brand to take their time.
 
Heron said:
It was crazy to me how many people were saying they thought this ran and/or looked better or the same than Legends Arceus. One of the first things I did after starting Scarlet was go back to Arceus to compare, and it's night and day. I think it was the very first thing I said on here after starting the game, that I couldn't believe what a step back it was from PLA.

I'm convinced that it's an issue of skill/talent as much as it is time (though it's both). The texture tiling thing is an issue of pure incompetence. Any modern dev can get that working. It doesn't require an extra few months. And they already had that working in-house on PLA!. How is that not incompetence?!?

Arceus is such a well-designed, well-built game. It doesn't look all that great due to the hardware it's on, but it's polished. It has an artstyle. It creates a sense of place. S/V are the total opposite. I know that a large portion of the credits are shared between games, but looking at 9.36 onwards - this has got to be two different core teams working on these games. Nothing else makes sense. And whoever is responsible for Arceus needs to take over the main series.
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It’s genuinely funny how the instant you gain control of your character in SV it feels so much worse than Arceus. Just walking around your little room feels sluggish in comparison.
 
Pokemaniac said:
To their credit, Sword and Shield did clean up the performance issues Sun and Moon had, albeit seemingly mostly as a result of the hardware catching up with what they were trying to force a 3DS to do.

There does seem to at least be a chance of serious improvement for Gen 10, as GF has seemingly been hiring explicitly to improve their tech. If they can also clean up their scheduling issues, they could maybe actually make a graceful hardware transition for once.
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Talking about scheduling they also seem to be hiring project managers which they have never had in prior titles. It's a shame that SV launched the way it did but I really do think things would only get better from here
 
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I wonder if the multiplayer had anything to do with the state of the release. Tbh no other game as far as I can remember (besides mmo's) has had multi like this and it's what elevates this for me to being the best Pokemon game ever made. The fact that you can watch/catch pokemon and do your individual story quests while in multi is mind blowing and what I've always dreamed of
 
Kappa said:
I wonder if the multiplayer had anything to do with the state of the release. Tbh no other game as far as I can remember (besides mmo's) has had multi like this and it's what elevates this for me to being the best Pokemon game ever made. The fact that you can watch/catch pokemon and do your individual story quests while in multi is mind blowing and what I've always dreamed of
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it's pretty much SS's multiplayer but in a larger world and progression
 
I understand that Game Freak (the higher-ups to be precise) decide the timeline for their own games, but it's weird to me how we (the "Internet") have shifted from "it's Nintendo's/TPC's fault" to "it's all on Game Freak!"

Honestly, give me one good argument as to why Nintendo's and TPC's upper management are not complicit in this mess. How is it possible that the worldwide publisher for Pokémon games of the last 26 years has no saying on what product is reaching their consumers is beyond me. How do they have zero input when they've had such a tight-knit relationship since forever?

No way it's anything but a desire to maximize profits when mainline pokémon is the greatest cash cow in the videogame's industry.
 
My assumption is that whichever party decides on how these games will be developed does not see the value of changing the existing formula. It’s hard to say when the bottom line starts being impacted but I understand the hesitation in investing in a stronger development process if the potential gains might seem minimal. I think some perspective is important - the complaints about the performance of Scarlet and Violet probably are still contained in a vacuum and I think it’s going to take time for the outcry to start breaking through.

I am definitely not excusing this. Really, what I am saying is - someone who calls the shots is going to need to step in or I don’t see this being fixed any time soon.

Caveat - if Nintendo is sitting on a stronger machine and GameFreak has been tinkering with development kits for a bit - perhaps the situation may resolve itself. I am 100% not saying the Switch is the problem, however.
 
This is simply embarrassing as a Switch owner. We went from some of the most polished titles in the entire industry with the most smoothest and responsive games on the market to this steaming pile of hot mess.

I'm sorry but I know better than to blame the individual developers who spend years working on these games putting their blood, sweat and tears while not getting paid as much as they should only to be forced to rush the game out to release because they have to meet their deadlines set by the higher ups.

Nintendo and Game Freak should be embarrassed.
 
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People can claim all they want that performance has no effect on their enjoyment, but Pokémon despawning as soon as they pop out, which happens at such short distance, is so, so bad and has a direct effect on gameplay. So many times I double back for something I spotted just for it to have vanished. Imagine missing a shiny this way. And Arceus had this entirely figured out already... Pokémon were tracked map-wide as soon as you loaded the area (I think).
 
Vernal said:
I understand that Game Freak (the higher-ups to be precise) decide the timeline for their own games, but it's weird to me how we (the "Internet") have shifted from "it's Nintendo's/TPC's fault" to "it's all on Game Freak!"

Honestly, give me one good argument as to why Nintendo's and TPC's upper management are not complicit in this mess. How is it possible that the worldwide publisher for Pokémon games of the last 26 years has no saying on what product is reaching their consumers is beyond me. How do they have zero input when they've had such a tight-knit relationship since forever?

No way it's anything but a desire to maximize profits when mainline pokémon is the greatest cash cow in the videogame's industry.
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Our general understanding of how this works is that GF sets their timeline for the mainline games and then TPC sets everything else around it, the anime, merch, crossovers etc. And once things have progressed too far and GF can't meet their end of the bargain there's not much that can be done to move all of the non-mainline game stuff.
 
Lord Azrael said:
People can claim all they want that performance has no effect on their enjoyment, but Pokémon despawning as soon as they pop out, which happens at such short distance, is so, so bad and has a direct effect on gameplay. So many times I double back for something I spotted just for it to have vanished. Imagine missing a shiny this way. And Arceus had this entirely figured out already... Pokémon were tracked map-wide as soon as you loaded the area (I think).
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Funnily enough this is great for hunting shinies. You can spawn so many new Pokémon constantly that way lol.
 
Vernal said:
I understand that Game Freak (the higher-ups to be precise) decide the timeline for their own games, but it's weird to me how we (the "Internet") have shifted from "it's Nintendo's/TPC's fault" to "it's all on Game Freak!"

Honestly, give me one good argument as to why Nintendo's and TPC's upper management are not complicit in this mess. How is it possible that the worldwide publisher for Pokémon games of the last 26 years has no saying on what product is reaching their consumers is beyond me. How do they have zero input when they've had such a tight-knit relationship since forever?

No way it's anything but a desire to maximize profits when mainline pokémon is the greatest cash cow in the videogame's industry.
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They very well may be complicit in this but without knowing the full workings or even a greater part makes it difficult. As @Dardan Sandiego pointed out in their post we have a general understanding but that’s all we really have: a general understanding.

They have a tight knit relationship but that doesn’t mean Nintendo can dictate GF nor does GF necessarily have to listen. TPC’s entire job is the following:
…responsible for brand management, production, publishing, marketing, and licensing of the Pokémonfranchise, which consists of video game software, a trading card game, anime television series, films, manga, home entertainment products, merchandise, and other ventures.
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They are brand managers so can only really offer input, which again GF doesn’t have to listen/take. From there they coordinate with GF & all over facets of the multimedia brand.

Money has a part to play in it obviously. It’s the most profitable brand in the entire world so not rocking the boat has been the strategy for quite awhile now. We’ll see in anything changes what with the anime that could indicate a change in strategy.
 
I only play portable and I think it may be slightly better than docked mode if that's what their full-screen recordings were

I got anxious with these 20 fps slowdowns in this video but it didn't feel that bad during gameplay
 
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Imagine gf releasing the next pokemon generation in 2024 on the switch 2 which is only a slight visual upgrade from this running at 4k (its actually 1440 to 900p) and 60fps (actually 45 to 26)
 
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I havnt bought the game yet because im waiting to buy at same time as a friend...but worse than Arceus is a surprise that takes me back a bit. I did not expect that.
 
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Dardan Sandiego said:
Our general understanding of how this works is that GF sets their timeline for the mainline games and then TPC sets everything else around it, the anime, merch, crossovers etc. And once things have progressed too far and GF can't meet their end of the bargain there's not much that can be done to move all of the non-mainline game stuff.
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Tentacle-tropes said:
They very well may be complicit in this but without knowing the full workings or even a greater part makes it difficult. As @Dardan Sandiego pointed out in their post we have a general understanding but that’s all we really have: a general understanding.

They have a tight knit relationship but that doesn’t mean Nintendo can dictate GF nor does GF necessarily have to listen. TPC’s entire job is the following:

They are brand managers so can only really offer input, which again GF doesn’t have to listen/take. From there they coordinate with GF & all over facets of the multimedia brand.

Money has a part to play in it obviously. It’s the most profitable brand in the entire world so not rocking the boat has been the strategy for quite awhile now. We’ll see in anything changes what with the anime that could indicate a change in strategy.
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Yeah I know that's our understanding of the situation, I know what TPC's job is, and I'm sure what you both are describing is probably what is happening, but I can't shake the feeling that all parties involved are "in on it", meaning as Tentacle said let's not rock the boat when the IP prints money. I just can't see the situation getting better without somebody high-up the food chain stepping in.

I've also been thinking about whether the anime situation might point towards some change in their brand management. One can only hope.
 
Vernal said:
Yeah I know that's our understanding of the situation, I know what TPC's job is, and I'm sure what you both are describing is probably what is happening, but I can't shake the feeling that all parties involved are "in on it", meaning as Tentacle said let's not rock the boat when the IP prints money. I just can't see the situation getting better without somebody high-up the food chain stepping in.

I've also been thinking about whether the anime situation might point towards some change in their brand management. One can only hope.
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the change will come when the development process stalls because they simply can't work with the tools. I think this is what happened with Gen 4. but as their games grow bigger, if the engine collapses under them, then all hell breaks loose. as I mentioned in other threads, this is pretty much why devs change to third party tools
 
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