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Spoiler Avatar: The Way of Water | Official Teaser

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As someone who loved the immersion and worldbuilding of the first movie, I am ready to revisit Pandora

I guess this means a teaser is dropping soon
 
Can't wait to see the movie, and hope it'll also spawn a "best theme park ride of all time" like the first one did
 
I've been trying to watch the cam rip but not being able to find it anywhere (Or just not looking efficiently enough).

I'm a big James Cameron buff and even when Avatar is not in my top 5 from the director's , i pretty much enjoyed Avatar for what it was, i'm looking forward to this, hopefully Cameron can inject tons of nuance to the story and characters that was missing in the first movie.

Also no 3D please, i'm happy that 3D thing is over now.
 
I never saw the original Avatar; is it really such a groundbreaking movie that this whole gigantic franchise needs to be built around it? Are people honestly going to care?
 
Christo750 said:
I never saw the original Avatar; is it really such a groundbreaking movie that this whole gigantic franchise needs to be built around it? Are people honestly going to care?
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It's the single biggest film of all time, and it pretty much set the standard for modern blockbusters in terms of motion capture, virtual sets, CGI fidelity, etc.

The story is pretty whack, and Cameron ripped off artists like Roger Deakins with the design of Pandora, but there's definitely going to be a big level of interest in the sequel when it comes out.
 
I hope that since Big Jimbo doesn't have to introduce us to a whole new world then we can get a less predictable story. I do like the first movie but it's not one of my favorites like T2 or Aliens. I do like T2 more than the first, so I'm kinda expecting Cameron to make a better sequel again, but I don't want to get myself too excited. The leaked teaser looks really good though, it's nice to see a $250 million dollar movie where the money actually shows up on screen. The music is apparently lifted from the score too, so that's pretty nice.

Christo750 said:
I never saw the original Avatar; is it really such a groundbreaking movie that this whole gigantic franchise needs to be built around it? Are people honestly going to care?
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Yes and yes. A director making their own socio-politically relevant and technologically innovative franchise like this hasn't been a thing since Lucas owned Star Wars. I think the fact that these movies are environmentally conscious blockbusters that try to get people to notice the real world destruction justifies their existence. I don't think Cameron was being too hyperbolic when he said he was trying to save the planet through this series.
 
samouraï said:
Yes and yes. A director making their own socio-politically relevant and technologically innovative franchise like this hasn't been a thing since Lucas owned Star Wars. I think the fact that these movies are environmentally conscious blockbusters that try to get people to notice the real world destruction justifies their existence. I don't think Cameron was being too hyperbolic when he said he was trying to save the planet through this series.
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True. It is wholly original, I didn't consider that.
 
I've hosted the leaked HD trailer on my google drive and linked it in the OP. Let me kmow if it stops working.
 
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i trusts cameron enough that im hyped for this, the trailer looks pretty sweet.

i am curious how the huge gap between movies will effect its reception
 
Sejes said:
i trusts cameron enough that im hyped for this, the trailer looks pretty sweet.

i am curious how the huge gap between movies will effect its reception
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Probably little. If you were sold on a sequel in 2010 I'm not sure why you wouldn't be sold on a sequel in 2022

Blade Runner 2049 came out 35 years after the first
 
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Man. Never could get into the first one. Watched it many times. I just don’t get the hype.
 
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The teaser looks great , who knows what the plot is going to be. I see that humans still have facilities so maybe they started working together in mining the unobtainium? i see Sully and Neytiri's daughter?
 
I really want them to do a story where Sully realizes that his Avatar has its own consciousness that's trying to re emerge, and where the two of them have to wrestle for control while the human/Navi war rages around them, and everything is suitably dark and psychological.

As it is, as long as there's less white saviour stuff this time round, I'm perfectly content to see a big CG film about the importance of family.
 
JazzPotatoes said:
I really want them to do a story where Sully realizes that his Avatar has its own consciousness that's trying to re emerge, and where the two of them have to wrestle for control while the human/Navi war rages around them, and everything is suitably dark and psychological.
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That's the scifi shit I'd love to see. I could see it happening if it tied into a theme of the ethical repercussions of white man inhabiting and adopting native cultures (see: white dude literally inhabiting the body of a native body with dreads, tribal tattoos, etc.)
 
bellydrum said:
That's the scifi shit I'd love to see. I could see it happening if it tied into a theme of the ethical repercussions of white man inhabiting and adopting native cultures (see: white dude literally inhabiting the body of a native body with dreads, tribal tattoos, etc.)
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I kind of thought that was what they were setting up in the first film with the shots of the Avatar in the tank in the first film, clearly dreaming while unconscious. But it ended up going not that way.

Cameron is exactly the sort of film maker I could see taking the story in that direction if he really wanted to. He's not exactly averse to dark, psychologically tense blockbusters. But it's probably more likely that he just wants to showcase Pandora more, and have a nice family friendly story as the basis for that.
 
JazzPotatoes said:
Cameron is exactly the sort of film maker I could see taking the story in that direction if he really wanted to. He's not exactly averse to dark, psychologically tense blockbusters. But it's probably more likely that he just wants to showcase Pandora more, and have a nice family friendly story as the basis for that.
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Yeah I agree. It's not that I think he wouldn't do it, or that he couldn't do it well, but that it's probably just not the focus of his story.

At its core the Avatar series is simultaneously a message of environmentalism / anti-colonialism, and a showcase of a world that Cameron really wanted to make and is proud of
 
It's very rare that CGI looks actually better than real life. It seems that James Cameron really threaded the needle there, with such great art direction it enhances the look of realism without going uncanny valley.

Very cool so far.
 
bellydrum said:
Yeah I agree. It's not that I think he wouldn't do it, or that he couldn't do it well, but that it's probably just not the focus of his story.

At its core the Avatar series is simultaneously a message of environmentalism / anti-colonialism, and a showcase of a world that Cameron really wanted to make and is proud of
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You know, I'm currently re-watching his filmography and i find myself delighted not only how much anti-corporations he is in most of his work (which i already knew), but also anti-US police.

Maybe it's just me but in both Terminator movies he absolutely makes an statement about the police and put them on the receiving end of both the villians AND the heroes. Even Dark Fate, in which he was heavily involved, has a little bit of this.

Furthermore , several of his black characters hold managerial or leadership positions. All of this on movies from the 80's early 90's
from a white filmaker, it is refreshing to see.

Of course, that's what I see. Since i consider Cameron a flat out genius i don't think it is a coincidence.
 
I am so ready for this.

I honestly do not get the hate this movie gets in some circles, especially the old site. I fucking love this movie. I felt so immerse in the world and characters. Not only that, but Cameron also has a writing style that makes everything feel so grounded. From Aliens to Terminator to True Lies to Avatar.

As the kids say, it fucking slaps.

And it’s also flat out my favorite ride as well in Disney (ride of the resistance is kinda mediocre, sorry, not sorry).
 
JazzPotatoes said:
I really want them to do a story where Sully realizes that his Avatar has its own consciousness that's trying to re emerge, and where the two of them have to wrestle for control while the human/Navi war rages around them, and everything is suitably dark and psychological.

As it is, as long as there's less white saviour stuff this time round, I'm perfectly content to see a big CG film about the importance of family.
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I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I would posit that this movie subverts the "white savior" trope

He throws away his entire whiteness and his entire humanity and literally trashes his original body to become one with the people. He really doesn't "save" them either - he tries, but they straight up don't accept and listen to him (rightfully so, since he betrayed their trust by withholding his motivation to assimilating with them).
The only way he is able to help the Na'vi is by telling them the plans of the humans before they happen. Giving them that information is a true act of solidarity, whether they accept it or not...

As for him becoming the sixth rider of last shadow, yeah I don't really have anything to say thag

Anyway my point is the movie is actually far more anti-imperialist and anti-capitalist and anti-white than people give it credit for. James Cameron literally tells audiences that the only way to fight against the evil empire is to give your body and sacrifice your life to the cause. He had audiences across America cheering for the viet cong
 
I always thought the white savior critique was pretty baseless, since Jake's plan fails and he almost dies. Even him taming that dragon thing is just following through that he's a rash decision maker, rather than him out nativing the natives.
 
The point of a White Saviour trope isn't that the white dude fails

It's that he gets opportunities to fail, build himself back up, and still end up getting the girl and leading the group to victory despite his failures. Opportunities that the non white characters never get in the story, because if they fail, they are relegated or killed off.

Sully is definitely a white saviour: even though he is directly responsible for the big Navi tree getting destroyed, he's the one who gets to lead the Navi to victory and shack up with the matriarchs daughter.
 
samouraï said:
I always thought the white savior critique was pretty baseless, since Jake's plan fails and he almost dies. Even him taming that dragon thing is just following through that he's a rash decision maker, rather than him out nativing the natives.
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The critique certainly is not baseless.
 
bellydrum said:
Anyway my point is the movie is actually far more anti-imperialist and anti-capitalist and anti-white than people give it credit for. James Cameron literally tells audiences that the only way to fight against the evil empire is to give your body and sacrifice your life to the cause.
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The last Samurai, Dances with wolves and LaLa Land cover the same things, none of this subverts the white savior trope. The fact that the white person is the special one who does something special with the culture theyre appropriating in an attempt to preserve it is the issue.
 
White Saviour isn't when the white hero gets nothing but A+

White Saviour is when the white hero consistently gets C's and D's but still ends up top of the class
 
Harina said:
The last Samurai, Dances with wolves and LaLa Land cover the same things, none of this subverts the white savior trope. The fact that the white person is the special one who does something special with the culture theyre appropriating in an attempt to preserve it is the issue.
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The protagonist of Avatar is not appropriating the Na'vi culture. To appropriate the culture, he would have to adopt elements of the Na'vi culture in a disrespectful or exploitative way.

The scientists in Avatar appropriate the culture. They learn the language and impress each other with how well they know Na'vi words. They steal samples and taint the land in the process; they act as if knowing facts about the Na'vi culture gives them some sort of moral superiority above the soldiers. The scientists appropriate the Na'vi culture in a very liberal fashion; their entire purpose is to make the job of the military easier.

Jake Sully throws away his entire human existence. Literally trashes his old body and never looks back. He neither steals nor exploits the Na'vi culture; a thematic underline is when the villain of the movie asks Jake at the end, "how does it feel to betray your own race?" There is no way to truly rebel against an empire in which you are a participant. You must throw away your life and extricate yourself from the machine, even if it means losing everything.

Also keep in mind that, while The Last Samurai, Dances With Wolves, and La La Land (?) may cover the same ground, this is a Hollywood film that made billions of dollars bringing this radical message to the world en masse in the cartoony guise of a "white guy saves everything" movie.
 
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That's not a subversion. That's just the trope. Dances and Last samurai aren't small productions,( la la land was an Oscar nominee) but I don't know why size actually matters, when everybody pointed out that it was dancing with wolves with blue people first day. Also most kind of shrug when it comes to the story and say they only go to see it for the visuals. I'd argue people were actually more taken with dances and last samurai than Avatar in the narrative.

And let's not forget that sully trashes his old body because it's broken and he's doing this so he has agency with in the corporate machine.

JazzPotatoes said:
White Saviour isn't when the white hero gets nothing but A+

White Saviour is when the white hero consistently gets C's and D's but still ends up top of the class
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Perfectly put.
 
bellydrum said:
The critique certainly is not baseless.
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The white savior trope has its roots in 19th century 'progressive' thinking that whiteys have to lift natives out of their own self inflicted problems through western thought. It's explicitly meant to foster a belief in white supremacy. A movie where some dude literally rejects his skin and helps the natives with stopping American style imperialism/exploitation, direct products of whiteness, didn't leave people thinking "being white is so cool." I get that westerners who don't know history are just inherently uncomfortable with the idea of a white guy with a native chief's daughter, but it's usage in Avatar isn't some exercise of mighty whitey accomplishing that through his western masculine supremacy over the savages.
 
samouraï said:
The white savior trope has its roots in 19th century 'progressive' thinking that whiteys have to lift natives out of their own self inflicted problems through western thought. It's explicitly meant to foster a belief in white supremacy. A movie where some dude literally rejects his skin and helps the natives with stopping American style imperialism/exploitation, direct products of whiteness, didn't leave people thinking "being white is so cool." I get that westerners who don't know history are just inherently uncomfortable with the idea of a white guy with a native chief's daughter, but it's usage in Avatar isn't some exercise of mighty whitey accomplishing that through his western masculine supremacy over the savages.
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I mean that's what I'm basically saying. But I said that the "white savior" criticism isn't baseless - people aren't necessarily wrong or bad for making those accusations, they're just not picking up on the subversion of the trope and the way the movie throws it in our faces.

The movie contradicts the idea that the hero is a "white savior" because he permanently throws away his whiteness and forever rejects humanity as a gesture of solidarity with those that are being oppressed by his people.

Now, if it were the case where Jake Sully returned to humanity in any way, then yes, this would be yet another white savior flick. But the movie sharply rejects that idea, and sends the message that if you benefit from an empire (America) but in any way resent it, nothing you do to express that resentment is truly valid unless you absolutely and permanently reject your association with and ability to benefit from it.
 
bellydrum said:
The movie contradicts the idea that the hero is a "white savior" because he permanently throws away his whiteness and forever rejects humanity as a gesture of solidarity with those that are being oppressed by his people.
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The only difference between this scene and Avatar is technology.

Whiteness is a construct, It is not an actual thing. The last Samurai and dances explicitly show this with how the armies interact with the natives. Dances has Costner slowly integrate his "whiteness" into their ways, while Samurai has cruise eschew his whiteness in favor of, in his view, the more honorable construct, the code of a Samurai.

White Savior does not explicitly mean they "save the day." It means the outsider, usually a white male because of society's social construct of what is supreme, goes into a culture and reveals/enriches things about the culture the people themselves cannot.

The fact that Sully does succeed makes it more egregorius, since both dances and last Samurai are far more realistic in how they resolve.
 
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Harina said:


The only difference between this scene and Avatar is technology.
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If Tom Cruise had prevented the modernization and Westernization of Japan, then you'd have a point that the movies' messages are the same, but instead all he did was make the Emperor appreciate tradition a little more.

Harina said:
White Savior does not explicitly mean they "save the day." It means the outsider, usually a white male because of society's social construct of what is supreme, goes into a culture and reveals/enriches things about the culture the people themselves cannot.

The fact that Sully does succeed makes it more egregorius, since both dances and last Samurai are far more realistic in how they resolve.
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The protagonist of Avatar doesn't go into the culture and reveal/enrich things about the culture the people themselves cannot.

The only thing he has that the Na'vi do not is knowledge of the human's plan of attack; delivering this information to them isn't some way of "enriching" them, it's an act of him betraying his species to the benefit of their oppressors.

My entire point is that you're throwing out a lot of nuance and potential discussion when you chalk it up to "another white savior movie" and throw it away. I get the impulse, but you're not arguing with someone who necessarily disagrees with you - read my other comments in this thread.
 
bellydrum said:
My entire point is that you're throwing out a lot of nuance
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You've already admitted Jake being able to tame the special bird was something that can't be accounted for in your view, and yet now you're trying to ignore it.

Wikipedia even has a simpler definition: The white savior is a cinematic trope in which a white central character rescues non-white (often less prominent) characters from unfortunate circumstances.

And there are a number of conversations on these subjects, though, because the internet is dominated by majority of white people, it's hard to find discussions that are actually balanced.

A white person being so good at a culture they're accepted and integrated in the culture is the story of Rachel dolezal(was the head of a NAACP chapter), technological advances be damned. See also Get Out.
 
Harina said:
You've already admitted Jake being able to tame the special bird was something that can't be accounted for in your view, and yet now you're trying to ignore it.
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This isn't the "gotcha" you think it is... the fact that you think I'm trying to ignore it is exactly why I'm saying our conversation has no nuance. It's not a conversation, it's you trying to educate me on something I already know while ignoring everything I'm saying. You're having some serious misreads on my point and my motivation. I feel like we're participating in different discussions.

Harina said:
Wikipedia even has a simpler definition:
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Alright, I already know these definitions, and I didn't need it simplified. We're clearly having two different discussions if you feel the need to educate me on this.
If I just say sure, you're right, Avatar is 100% a white savior flick with no nuance and no subversion, played completely straight, with no redeeming messages or qualities and no need for discussion, will you be satisfied and end this conversation with me?
 
samouraï said:
The white savior trope has its roots in 19th century 'progressive' thinking that whiteys have to lift natives out of their own self inflicted problems through western thought. It's explicitly meant to foster a belief in white supremacy. A movie where some dude literally rejects his skin and helps the natives with stopping American style imperialism/exploitation, direct products of whiteness, didn't leave people thinking "being white is so cool." I get that westerners who don't know history are just inherently uncomfortable with the idea of a white guy with a native chief's daughter, but it's usage in Avatar isn't some exercise of mighty whitey accomplishing that through his western masculine supremacy over the savages.
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Comparing this to Gonzalo Guerrero is a little disingenuous I think. This movie was not made during the early era of European colonialism. It was produced and distributed centuries after Europeans ravaged the Americas. It's a sci-fi allegory that invites the audience to make those comparisons, and when we know the totality of European colonization and its effects, it's certainly going to make people think more of the damage and racism caused by it rather than a cross culture dynamic that was fostered well before everything that's happened since.

I can bring up in counter all the examples of Europeans raping and pillaging Indigenous people instead, if we want to talk history.
 
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bellydrum said:
If I just say sure, you're right, Avatar is 100% a white savior flick with no nuance and no subversion, played completely straight, with no redeeming messages or qualities and no need for discussion, will you be satisfied and end this conversation with me?
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There's plenty of nuance to how Avatar utilizes the white savior trope, but a white man physically embodying another culture is text not subtext.

Unlike Samurai or Dances, Sully comes from a lower station compared to what he gains by integrating, ie the apex of the naavi in the flesh. Unlike Samurai or Dances, he integrated by choice. He's also literally appointed by the spirits of the navvi from the moment they meet him.

Film critique has nothing to do with who's right or wrong, it's just a conversation. But sure I'm done.
 
Also I don’t find the idea “he gave up his whiteness to save Pandora” very compelling. He’s giving up life as a paralyzed human on a polluted planet to run around on a magical forest moon with the woman he loves. Hard choice there.
 
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