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Star Fox was itself inspired by Namco's Starblade, and Argonaut had made similar games before like Starglider. That doesn't even go into stuff like Space Harrier, Star Wars Arcade, etc. Sci-fi rail shooters were a thing long before the SNES. Even at the time, reviews referred to it as a rail shooter that had that Nintendo spin with fun animal characters. It helped set it apart from other shooters, and of course nowadays when people think rail shooter, they think Star Fox.
When people are suggesting things like Furry Mass Effect or Furry Battlefield, they're not saying literally do that 1:1, they're saying use some of those templates and put that innovative Nintendo spin on it. After all, that's how Splatoon came about.
And yeah, a Ratchet & Clank-style Star Fox would be pretty rad.
When people are suggesting things like Furry Mass Effect or Furry Battlefield, they're not saying literally do that 1:1, they're saying use some of those templates and put that innovative Nintendo spin on it. After all, that's how Splatoon came about.
And yeah, a Ratchet & Clank-style Star Fox would be pretty rad.
When people are suggesting things like Furry Mass Effect or Furry Battlefield, they're not saying literally do that 1:1, they're saying use some of those templates and put that innovative Nintendo spin on it. After all, that's how Splatoon came about.
The Splatoon comparison doesn’t really work when they explicitly made a new IP because it wouldn’t fit any of their existing ones. "Furry Mass Effect" and these other suggestions are the exact opposite of that.
I want furry mass effect because I want furry mass effect. Especially after the animated short. Rail shooters are just so damn limited in what you can do. Besides, why cam Mario do more than one genre bust Star Fox can't? The last several games were already rail shooters, and one of them was a Zelda-clone
I want furry mass effect because I want furry mass effect. Especially after the animated short. Rail shooters are just so damn limited in what you can do. Besides, why cam Mario do more than one genre bust Star Fox can't? The last several games were already rail shooters, and one of them was a Zelda-clone
Honestly this argument is pointless because none of y'all are gonna get what you want from this series lol. We're not getting furry Mass Effect but we're also not getting a plain ol' no frills rail-shooter like Star Fox and Star Fox 64 again, the fact that it took the two screen motion control scheme gimmick for Miyamoto to make a new game that even remotely resembles those two says it all.
I want furry mass effect because I want furry mass effect. Especially after the animated short. Rail shooters are just so damn limited in what you can do. Besides, why cam Mario do more than one genre bust Star Fox can't? The last several games were already rail shooters, and one of them was a Zelda-clone
During Splatoon’s production there was a period where they did use Mario characters; their last resort if they couldn’t put together a unique world for the unique gameplay (their rabbit pitch wasn’t well received with higher-ups, iirc). It was the last thing the team wanted and thankfully for them they came up with the humanoid squid concept, saving the project from becoming Mario Splatters or whatever. The caption on this slide says it all:
If a team at EPD want to make their own take on a sci-fi action rpg like Mass Effect it doesn’t have to be with the Star Fox IP. It isn’t their only sci-fi series (Metroid) and it isn’t their only series starring anthro animals (Animal Crossing). A new play experience needs a new world and characters after all.
Nintendo have had other rail shooter games in the past too (Sin & Punishment, Kid Icarus Uprising), but none internally developed and none of them are actively ongoing series. For fans of the genre it’d be a shame for one of the remaining options from major publishers to be lost in favor of copying something else. It’s the same feeling Smash Kart and similar suggestions give me; taking away the unique identity of a property just to chase trends. If anything I think the aforementioned examples of other rail shooters show the potential Star Fox still has to reach; both incredible games that a new Star Fox should learn from. Thankfully those Star Fox files datamined from Switch Sports, if representative of a new game, clearly reference traditional Star Fox gameplay elements; so I hope this time they’ll really take the chance to iterate on Star Fox 64 properly, no strings attached.
Nothing wrong with spin-offs when a series is perfectly active either. Splatoon now has two mainline installments on Switch and there are plenty of requests for a spin-off of some kind. Contrast that to the response Federation Force received; in the middle of the post-Other M drought with no proper Metroid game in sight. If they really wanted to do a Furry Mass Effect with Star Fox there’s a time and place for it; and that’s after they get a new traditional game in the series on the Switch ecosystem first.
If people don’t think Nintendo can sell a $60 rail shooter they are wrong. There are a lot of things Nintendo puts out that people think are overpriced and they sell well anyway. The rail shooter just needs to be good.
Remember people thought a $60 Metroidvania was unviable.
Rabbits wasn't just not well recieved by the higher-ups during Splatoon's development. Pretty much everyone asked them "Why the rabbits?" because there is little synergy between the species and the gameplay (which is shooting inks)
Regarding Star Fox, it's an interesting point in the franchise now. Only time will tell if Nintendo's gonna do something about it. Hopefully we won't get another Zero situation. But an actual original game this time. Rail-shooter or not. (Personally I would like a new game in style of Star Fox 2 though)
Speaking of rail-shooter. One interesting anecdote is that the House of the Dead remake did surprisingly well on the Japanese eShop. It was in the top 10 for a few weeks. Now this might speak more to the IP's legacy than the genre popularity, (also it's not a full price title) but if Nintendo can make a really good Star Fox game with high replayability. $60 isn't gonna be a problem. (the game will be more frontload sale-wise, a la Paper Mario: The Origami King)
If people don’t think Nintendo can sell a $60 rail shooter they are wrong. There are a lot of things Nintendo puts out that people think are overpriced and they sell well anyway. The rail shooter just needs to be good.
Remember people thought a $60 Metroidvania was unviable.
Like I keep trying to say, the issue isn't "can a traditional rail-shooter sell well in this day and age", the issue is...does Miyamoto and Nintendo actually have any interest in developing one?
Many of the people who have worked on the series over the years, like Dylan Cuthbert, Takaya Imamura, Platinum, etc have stated time and time and time and time again that Miyamoto never intended Star Fox to remain a generic rail-shooter series like what a lot of its fans want it to be. SF1 and SF64 were really the only way they were just because of technical limitations at the time.
To Miyamoto, it was always a really a avenue to explore new wacky ideas in the 3D gaming space. To him, Star Fox is "not a set game, but a world for new ways to play." Here's an excerpt from a Nintendo Dream interview with Imamura and Cuthbert back in 2011 regarding Star Fox 64 3D.
What will happen in the future?
There is no other "Star Fox" with the same game system, is there?
Imamura: That's right. Because, for example, the 3D shooter system was already completed in "64". But since the characters were established in "64," we thought it would be nice to play with them a little more, which led us to "Adventure".
Dylan: Miyamoto-san often says that "Star Fox is not a set game, but a world for new ways to play."
I see. So you're using Star Fox to challenge new ways of playing.
Dylan: Yeah. We experimented with a lot of different things when we were making "2," even though it was never released, like 3D space. It was the same with "Command," and it's very interesting because it's unique to this series. You know, in other series, you make the same thing with a few new elements. But "Star Fox" is a very unique series, with "Adventure", "Assault", and "Command".
Want to know why Star Fox didn't get a game on the Wii, even though it feels like it would of been a slam dunk with the Wiimote? Why, because Miyamoto "didn't have enough new ideas for it" to will it into existence. He even said that he "wasn’t particularly interested in just making another Star Fox game with better graphics and better sound". Like I just said, it took the weird two screen control gimmick for get Miyamoto to go back to the basics of SF64 and make a game that even remotely resembles for the first two released titles.
I mean Star Fox 2 was already heavily diverging from SF1's formula, which would be refined in SF64. They were already moving away from the traditional rail-shooter set up and going for more of a free roaming exploration third person shooter type deal with strategy/rogue-like elements. It's also worth pointing out that even after SF64's success, Miyamoto told Imamura and co. to make a ground based action adventure game instead of a shooter, which ended up becoming combined with Dinosaur Planet to become Star Fox Adventures.
So once again, no, we're probably not gonna get "Furry Mass Effect" (which makes sense, because I don't think Nintendo would ever make a game like ME, Star Fox or no), but honestly I feel like a no-frills, gimmick free Star Fox 64 sequel also feels like a pipe dream, at least with Miyamoto around.
Want to know why Star Fox didn't get a game on the Wii, even though it feels like it would of been a slam dunk with the Wiimote? Why, because Miyamoto "didn't have enough new ideas for it" to will it into existence. He even said that he "wasn’t particularly interested in just making another Star Fox game with better graphics and better sound". Like I just said, it took the weird two screen control gimmick for get Miyamoto to go back to the basics of SF64 and make a game that even remotely resembles for the first two released titles.
That’s a shame that Miyamoto couldn’t come up with better ideas. He should have looked at games like Sin & Punishment and Panzer Dragoon for inspiration, I’m sure he coud have come up with something better and more interesting than Star Fox Zero.
That’s a shame that Miyamoto couldn’t come up with better ideas. He should have looked at games like Sin & Punishment and Panzer Dragoon for inspiration, I’m sure he coud have come up with something better and more interesting than Star Fox Zero.
Exactly. Plenty of great things to be done with rail shooters. The idea that Star Fox is generic, or that future rail shooter Star Fox games will be inherently generic, is just plain silly.
What I will say is that I think Star Fox can overall categorized as a vehicular combat arcade shooter, not just a rail-shooter like so many people tend to believe.
As mentioned above, Star Fox 2 already moved away from pure-rail shooting and added rogue like/strategy elements and also free roaming Walker stages, but it was still very much an arcade shooter in its design. Same thing with Assault and Zero, they both experimented with new styles of play (on-foot combat and two screen controls) but still very much belong to the same genre that SF1, SF2 and SF64 belong to, even if they're of more questionable quality.
It's really only Adventures (which was originally Dinosaur Planet) and even Command (which is really just more of an offshoot of 1-64's formula doing its own thing) that diverge heavily from this. Also Guard, but that's just a simple spinoff of Zero and not a main game.
I guess my overall point is that we could still get a score attack Star Fox arcade shooter game, but that doesn't mean it won't experiment with the controls and core mechanics like SF2, Assault and Zero have. It's not just gonna literally be "Star Fox 64 but new levels" like so many people want.
What I will say is that I think Star Fox can overall categorized as a vehicular combat arcade shooter, not just a rail-shooter like so many people tend to believe.
As mentioned above, Star Fox 2 already moved away from pure-rail shooting and added rogue like/strategy elements and also free roaming Walker stages, but it was still very much an arcade shooter in its design. Same thing with Assault and Zero, they both experimented with new styles of play (on-foot combat and two screen controls) but still very much belong to the same genre that SF1, SF2 and SF64 belong to, even if they're of more questionable quality.
It's really only Adventures (which was originally Dinosaur Planet) and even Command (which is really just more of an offshoot of 1-64's formula doing its own thing) that diverge heavily from this. Also Guard, but that's just a simple spinoff of Zero and not a main game.
I guess my overall point is that we could still get a score attack Star Fox arcade shooter game, but that doesn't mean it won't experiment with the controls and core mechanics like SF2, Assault and Zero have. It's not just gonna literally be "Star Fox 64 but new levels" like so many people want.
Star Fox 64 wasn't "just a rail-shooter" either, so I'm not sure where this idea comes from that the people who want a proper follow-up from that are opposed to experimentation?
what about a star fox where star fox runs around in a big open world to but there are like these places where he can go into a rail shooter section to collect the fox stars
Give Star Fox an dedicated, passionate team and a budget they can work with without niche gimmicks and it will establish itself again as a great franchise.
A modern, great looking game with various paths, planets and gameplay hooks via new Arwing abilities/transformation and on foot gameplay and I would buy it instantly.
The biggest thing holding Zero back was the Gamepad implementation.
I don't think any new star fox game is going to be a continuation of any past game. Its just gonna be a fun new space adventure with Fox and His Friends. I still don't think Star Fox is/should be a series where narrative is the focus. All the good Star Fox games just use it as window dressing for space action.
That's more or less what I'm saying. Zero effectively reboots the series, allowing it to take a more episodic approach, something Miyamoto actually touched upon.
I also see series like Metroid taking a similar approach, with more standalone episodic adventures instead of an overarching narrative. It's better for developers to not get constrained by continuous plotline developments.
That’s a shame that Miyamoto couldn’t come up with better ideas. He should have looked at games like Sin & Punishment and Panzer Dragoon for inspiration, I’m sure he coud have come up with something better and more interesting than Star Fox Zero.
As much as I love both series, I don’t think either does enough gameplay-wise to warrant that. They’re just a more refined/hardcore take on the rail shooter formula, with a twist. I totally understand why a game designer like Miyamoto would rather attempt something wackier (and fail) instead.
Arguing semantics doesn't really help. By "modern" people are referring to what gameplay evolutions and trends are doing well nowadays. What do modern audiences want? Rail shooters often were graphical showcases that used limited movement to maximize the graphics of the levels you played through. I linked Starblade earlier, but look at that and see how so much of it looks like it directly inspired Star Fox SNES. The big difference is that Starblade was on arcade hardware, and had better polygons and a far better framerate. Even so, Star Fox was considered a graphical showcase for 3D on consoles at the time.
Star Fox 64 may not be 100% a rail shooter because it has some all-range sections, but it's still mostly a rail shooter and largely follows the formula of Star Fox 1. If anything Star Fox 2 largely bucks the on-rails trend in favor of exploration and "platforming", and iirc was a direct inspiration for Mario 64.
No need to get lost in the weeds. Overall the idea is that rail shooters don't tend to sell super well, so maybe it's worthwhile looking into how to mix it up.
As Dinoman pointed out, even the developers themselves figured rail shooters were a limited genre and wanted to move beyond it. It's like saying Metroid or Kid Icarus can only be 2D action platformer games. Miyamoto never saw Star Fox as only a Thunderbirds flight-based game. It clearly is a setting with plenty of potential. Nintendo has just done terrific job squandering it.
If they really wanted to, they could do two titles at once. Do an eshop-only Star Fox 3 or something that is a retro throwback to the 90s rail shooter arcade style. Then put out a $60 bigger budget game that does something different, whether that be an Assault/Battlefield-style evolution, or a SF Adventures remake, or Furry Mass Effect, or whatever. That way they appease both crowds.
Arguing semantics doesn't really help. By modern people are referring to what gameplay evolutions and trends are doing well nowadays. What do modern audiences want? Rail shooters often were graphical showcases that used limited movement to maximize the graphics of the levels you played through. I linked Starblade earlier, but look at that and see how so much of it looks like it directly inspired Star Fox SNES. The big difference is that Starblade was on arcade hardware, and had better polygons and a far better framerate. Even so, Star Fox was considered a graphical showcase for 3D on consoles at the time.
Star Fox 64 may not be 100% a rail shooter because it has some all-range sections, but it's still mostly a rail shooter and largely follows the formula of Star Fox 1. If anything Star Fox 2 largely bucks the on-rails trend in favor of exploration and "platforming", and iirc was a direct inspiration for Mario 64.
No need to get lost in the weeds. Overall the idea is that rail shooters don't tend to sell super well, so maybe it's worthwhile looking into how to mix it up.
As Dinoman pointed out, even the developers themselves figured rail shooters were a limited genre and wanted to move beyond it. It's like saying Metroid or Kid Icarus can only be 2D action platformer games. Miyamoto never saw Star Fox as only a Thunderbirds flight-based game. It clearly is a setting with plenty of potential. Nintendo has just done terrific job squandering it.
If they really wanted to, they could do two titles at once. Do an eshop-only Star Fox 3 or something that is a retro throwback to the 90s rail shooter arcade style. Then put out a $60 bigger budget game that does something different, whether that be an Assault/Battlefield-style evolution, or a SF Adventures remake, or Furry Mass Effect, or whatever. That way they appease both crowds.
The last point I think is a good idea, but for now Nintendo will have to get Star Fox to succeed before they spend time, people and money making 2 separate Star Fox games.
It’d be kindaish like you have your open world Zelda games and then maybe 2D Zelda is classic Zelda.
Don't know how you can take it that way. From a definition perspective a game can still be modern without looking great so using both these words in conjunction isn't even weird at all.
Don't know how you can take it that way. From a definition perspective a game can still be modern without looking great so using both these words in conjunction isn't even weird at all.
Takes like "Star Fox needs to be identical to a 1997 rail shooter with nicer graphics or it should cease to exist" are a very limited viewpoint. Like I said before, Kid Icarus: Uprising likely underperformed considering the clout behind it. Sin & Punishment 2 outright flopped. Panzer Dragoon remake is a budget title. Some genres just don't do well beyond a niche for hardcore fans nowadays. Look at side scrolling shmups. They used to be a massive genre with tons of releases. Now it's a niche genre for hardcore (and usually older) fans. Sure they occasionally still come out, but they're not selling 5 million copies at $60 a pop. I don't see how Star Fox 64: Attempt 4 would change that trend, but it doesn't mean Star Fox should be vaulted. Nintendo wants this franchise to grow, and that means they might consider making something younger fans will appreciate without nostalgia goggles.
On the other hand, takes like "Trying to get inspiration from modern games means it's no longer itself so why bother, just make a new IP" or "Get rid of the furries and make it an anime-style human gatcha game that copies the latest Japanese gaming trends" are also limited. I don't think people are saying toss everything out and start over or get rid of what sets it apart from its peers, but rather look at what is selling with the masses nowadays and do your own unique spin on it. That's what I meant by Splatoon being Nintendo's take on that genre. Star Fox is malleable enough to be in any genre (as we've seen before, and as the creators have suggested). I remember when Metroid Prime was announced to be a first person title, there was a lot of trepidation it would just be a Doom or Halo Clone and lose that moody atmosphere of exploration and isolation. Lo and behold, Nintendo worked their magic and we had a new and beloved Metroid series. Who's to say they couldn't do that again with Star Fox, moving beyond 1997 rail shooter gameplay?
Nintendo is resurrecting a lot of fan favorites on Switch. Who would've thought we'd get Pokemon Snap 2, Mario Strikers 3, Metroid 5, Pikmin 4, an Advance Wars remake (eventually) and maybe even Golden Sun and F-Zero? If those properties can get new entries after years and years of fan requests, Star Fox could get something on Switch, too, and it'll be fascinating (and probably controversial) whatever path they choose to take. It won't please everybody, but hopefully it'll do well and revive the series into a healthier place going forward.
It is not for me to say in what way you should interprete "modern" but tone policing me about it because you think modern = automatically the worst trends in gaming is kinda on you and honestly it irks me the wrong way.
It is not for me to say in what way you should interprete "modern" but tone policing me about it because you think modern = automatically the worst trends in gaming is kinda on you and honestly it irks me the wrong way.
The Splatoon comparison doesn’t really work when they explicitly made a new IP because it wouldn’t fit any of their existing ones. "Furry Mass Effect" and these other suggestions are the exact opposite of that.
You must've missed the part where I said that Star Fox was heavily inspired by games like Starblade (seriously, the playthrough I linked could be mistaken for actual Star Fox levels). Nintendo put their own unique spin on it and that set it apart from other rail shooters of the time. Similarly, Splatoon was their own unique spin on the third person competitive multiplayer genre. Since nothing has reversed the trend of making rail shooters' decline in popularity, perhaps Nintendo could try putting a spin on more popular, recent trends. What form that takes, who knows.
tbh it kinda bothers me when people also similarly label Kid Icarus Uprising as just a "rail-shooter"
Like the vast bulk of that game, 2/3 to be exact, is actually a third person shooter character action game on land, that's where you fight most of the game's bosses and the whole multiplayer mode is based around the land combat and mechanics. The rail-shooter stages are actually a fairly small part of the game all things considered, though they do have some stages that are almost entirely flying, I suppose.
well I didn't know I had misunderstood you then. I thought you were suggesting that the gameplay needed to become modern and was asserting my opinion that modern gameplay is not synonymous with good
I'm baffled by the suggestion that I'm "tone policing" you or in any way controlling what you say. @Mr Doggo does say what I thought you meant and I both have no intention of stopping telling him he's wrong and no expectation that he'll censor himself for my benefit. I'd be disappointed if he did!
speaking more broadly about the whole topic, I tend to be sanctimonious and stubborn about it because I know it's a losing fight. if star fox comes back it will be dramatically transformed, and there's a good chance I won't like it. in the meantime I will continue to erroneously defend the valor of rail shooters and arcade-style gameplay
tbh it kinda bothers me when people also similarly label Kid Icarus Uprising as just a "rail-shooter"
Like the vast bulk of that game, 2/3 to be exact, is actually a third person shooter character action game on land, that's where you fight most of the game's bosses and the whole multiplayer mode is based around the land combat and mechanics. The rail-shooter stages are actually a fairly small part of the game all things considered, though they do have some stages that are almost entirely flying, I suppose.
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