Then you're not reading the whole thing. The t239 is all but confirmed to be for Drake, even Nate believes that
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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)
- Thread starter Dakhil
- Start date
Stinky Horse
Bob-omb
I suppose a private Atlan->Thor situation isn't out of the question
- Pronouns
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Developers and engineers have been operating under the idea that they should push tech to what is possible but, yes, forgot about how to design engines and software that consider labour hours. UE5 is a step in the right direction, with tools intended specifically to minimize workload like Nanite, and the death of Moore's Law has forced chip-makers to get really creative and find hardware acceleration techniques to squeeze more out of every clock cycle for less, which also lightens workloads.
But more needs to be done in that direction, because the way that publishers treat staff is not sustainable, with the abuse and wage-trimming and asking more from fewer people because companies either don't want to hire or, in some cases, cannot hire because of the industry's abhorrent reputation diminishing the skilled workforce.
So yeah, development is reaching a point that, without yet more improvements to development and hardware efficiency, things are only going to get worse for the people who actually make them, even more unsustainable than it is right now without some drastic change.
But it also seems that several in the industry seem to have caught onto that fact and are directing attention to hardware and tools to solve the problem (even though it likely won't solve a thing).
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- they/them
The reason so many games are still cross-gen isn’t technical, it’s economic. Games are so expensive to make that it doesn’t really make any sense to make them exclusive to hardware that has only sold a few tens of millions; doing so would limit sales too much.
You’ll note that of the next-gen exclusive games so far, they’re basically all either first-party titles like Ratchet & Clank or Flight Simulator, or they’re titles that were moneyhatted to help defray their development cost, like Deathloop, Ghostwire: Tokyo, Forspoken, and Final Fantasy XVI. It’s just normally not economically viable for a third party to aim for anything less than the largest addressable market.
It isn’t just graphical fidelity that has increased game budgets. Game scope has increased dramatically, too. A game that you can beat in an hour like Star Fox 64 or Yoshi’s Story just isn’t viable as a full-priced game any more. Everything has to be a massive open world game that has dozens of hours of content.
So you are saying T239 is confirmed to be Drake? What has that got to do with Nintendo?
I know what you meant, just messing
ArchedThunder
Uncle Beerus
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To compensate for the cost of the internals Nintendo has decided to return to dot matrix displays, please understand.
OP
OP
Probably not very likely if Nintendo continues to use OLED displays from Samsung for Nintendo's new hardware.
kvetcha
hoopy frood
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what if all the joycon buttons are gumdrops
Raccoon
Fox Brigade
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this is actually a realistic expectation, right?what if we get no ray traced games!
Raccoon
Fox Brigade
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it's a genuine question
all I've heard about ray tracing for this has been downplaying it; limited capacity, too intensive for handheld, Nintendo is unhappy, etc
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You can have ray tracing on any console, there's probably some Switch games that do it already.
OP
OP
Simplygon supporting NVIDIA's new Micro-Mesh technology
With NVIDIA's new Micro-Mesh technology, developers will be able to continue their quest to fill their worlds with content. The technology removes many of the traditional bottlenecks, releasing creators from many of the shackles that previous generation hardware had put on them. We at Simplygon...
simplygon.com
RT is very scalable, as it depends on your resolution. 1 ray per pixel can be heavy so going down to 1 ray per 4 pixels is much lighter. not only that, you can scale the fidelity of the assets being traced.
I've said RT has been overhyped and underhyped at the same time. people expect pixar-looking games when you turn it on and get disappointed when all it is is better reflections, shadows, ao, etc. but that's the great thing about it! like all those pokemon screenshots I've posted in the past pointng out the shitty shadows. RT can fix that and you don't have make them so costly. it's the little things that add up to make a better picture and RT can really help out with those little things
also, it's hard to really say RT is so costly when even a GT 1030 can do better than screen space reflections
you can have both if the devs take the time for it
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Deleted member 887
Guest
Good analysis. Folks can easily compare clock speeds, and are used to doing so in apples-to-apples desktop situations, it's not obvious that Jaguar to A78C isn't apples to apples.
Zen 2 is a superior arch to Jaguar, but it's a 19 stage pipeline with cache size similar to A78C and its 13 stage. A cache miss on Zen 2 is deadly, which is one of the reasons it leans so hard on it's (excellent) branch predictor.
Microsoft is eliminating physical, actively, with GamePass. Sony desperately wants a streaming service for other reasons. The Switch has limited storage, and is designed to be played in low/no internet situations, on the go. I expect Nintendo would be the last to go
Serif
𝕽𝖊𝖓𝖊𝖌𝖆𝖉𝖊 𝕬𝖓𝖌𝖊𝖑
I thought Crysis Remastered had it - I assume their voxel based global illumination solution is a form of software ray tracing
eK-XL
Rattata
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- He
Wow. It seems the general consensus is against me on Nintendo going digital only this generation. Everything is going that way -- even Microsoft and Sony are clearly signaling that this is the last physical gen for both of them. Brick and Mortar stores are disappearing as more and more of the things we consume move to digital. I saw the Xbox One launch fiasco mentioned as well, as if that just happened instead of 10 years ago. I suspect Nintendo will still sell boxes just with digital codes in them at first to bridge the gap and keep the self space they currently occupy at places like GameStop, and I hope that they add gift purchasing before going all digital, but I'd be shocked if they kept cartridges around another generation. I'll leave my end of the discussion at that. We'll all find out soon enough.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Like Like
Will dis herdware has dem pertakal effecz???
ReddDreadtheLead
#TeamLate2025WithAPotentialForEarly2026
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If I were to do it for the other consoles, I’d get:
(with a 25% uplift SMT)
Series S: 888ST/ 5,770MT. (3.4GHz SMT enabled)
Series X: 940ST/ 6,109MT (3.6GHz SMT enabled)
PS5: 914ST/ 5,943MT (3.5GHz SMT enabled)
When you compare it, it actually matches up with the reported 5-6x performance increase over the previous generation consoles (they used the base). It was per the former Unity and Ubisoft dev:
Just tweak to the right clocks and…. Tada! Compare the MT scores I posted to these Zen 2 scenarios and again, matches up! About 5-6x
And it matches up of the 4-5x single core increase over last Gen. From Eurogamer:
We built a 'next-gen' Zen 2/Navi-based PC - how much faster is it than current-gen consoles?
Development kits are out, game makers are briefed. Sony's PlayStation 5 and Xbox Project Scarlett projects are under wa…
www.eurogamer.net
So I guess I’m confident with this methodology being a good enough user for a benchmark in practice? Theoretically speaking of course.
A78: ((345)(number of cores)(Freq))*0.82 = score as it would appear if on GB5
Zen 2: (((261)(number of cores)(Freq))0.743)(SMT increase, can be 1.2, 1.35, or 1.5) = score as if would appear if on GB5 in its actual scenario.
That’s what I get for making it comparable enough in theory.
crysis remaster does have rt reflections but not on switch. voxels is just that, tracing against a voxel structure rather than a bvh structure.
there are a great many other places that have high physical sales, like Asia
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Even if they were interested in getting rid of physical media, this seems like a practical giant mess considering most of us are expecting a lot of cross-gen games. Is cross-gen TOTK allowed to run in Drake mode from a game card while a Drake-only game launching the same day isn't?
Lelouch0612
Growing Install Base
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A digital-only world isn't something Nintendo is interested in given how their most successful new IP of the Switch era is physical-only. It is in their DNA.
I have no idea what ip you are talking about.
D
Deleted member 887
Guest
I assume RFA
ReddDreadtheLead
#TeamLate2025WithAPotentialForEarly2026
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It is Ring-Fit Adventure, yes.
You can only buy that game physically.
It’s an over 10M seller
YolkFolk
Tingle
There’s zero chance of anything you say happening but opinions and all that…
you can get the game digitally, I think. but it's through a round about way
ShadowFox08
Paratroopa
Maybe the generation after Switch Next. We'll get a better idea in 4-6 years. Switch carts do cost a lot.
Lelouch0612
Growing Install Base
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It is Ring Fit Adventure yeah, the game isn't available on the eshop and sold 14.54m units as of June 2022.
Mr Swine
Like Like
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oh I didn’t, I just skimmed through all. Thanks for clarifying this
Disorientator
Cappy
Not sure if something useful can come out of it, or even if this old, but I'm posting it anyways just in case it gets forever lost.
So after some aimless googling I bumped into some Nvidia development documentation, which mentions t239 in one of the readme files.
More specifically, the file seems to have been modified on August 8th, and t239 is listed as one of the GPUs supported by the "Ampere_B" class.
Here's a screenshot of the file contents, but you can also access it directly here.
I tried looking for further t239 references in the header/and other files on that site/repository, but I came up empty. Maybe you guys can dig deeper.
So after some aimless googling I bumped into some Nvidia development documentation, which mentions t239 in one of the readme files.
More specifically, the file seems to have been modified on August 8th, and t239 is listed as one of the GPUs supported by the "Ampere_B" class.
Here's a screenshot of the file contents, but you can also access it directly here.
I tried looking for further t239 references in the header/and other files on that site/repository, but I came up empty. Maybe you guys can dig deeper.
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Deleted member 887
Guest
Yeah, I churned this up in the wake of the cpu-freq patch. Further confirmation of a few things - RT and Ampere arch generally - but I couldn't infer anything else useful from it, except that the dates on the files is consistent with the August timeline of separating branching Orin stuff from Drake, so that Orin data/code could be publishedNot sure if something useful can come out of it, or even if this old, but I'm posting it just in case it gets forever lost.
So after some aimless googling I bumped into some Nvidia development documentation, which mentions t239 in one of the readme files.
More specifically, the file seems to have been modified on August 8th, and t239 is listed as one of the GPUs supported by the "Ampere_B" class.
Here's a screenshot of the file contents, but you can also access it directly here.
I tried looking for further t239 references in the header/and other files on that site/repository, but I came up empty. Maybe you guys can dig deeper.
Disorientator
Cappy
Ah so it's old - cheers.
Not keeping up with the thread, so I'm probably having blanks on the avail. info.
ReddDreadtheLead
#TeamLate2025WithAPotentialForEarly2026
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So I did the math,
With Sparsity enabled and Drake clocked to 1GHz in docked mode, 1.84ms for 1080p, 2.76ms for 1440p and 5.4ms for 2160p.
For DLSS. Coming from 720p. I think.
With Sparsity enabled and Drake clocked to 1GHz in docked mode, 1.84ms for 1080p, 2.76ms for 1440p and 5.4ms for 2160p.
For DLSS. Coming from 720p. I think.
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With what internal resolution?
Anyway 4k60fps seems more or less out of the question. That’s a third of the frame budget.
ReddDreadtheLead
#TeamLate2025WithAPotentialForEarly2026
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The technical factors really shouldn't be discounted here. Games have never been anywhere near this scalable, and the hardware never this iterative. You just couldn't have had games releasing across this wide a spread of consoles before now.
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Must be like the half-empty or half-full glass of water. I looked at it and thought "Only 1/3 to get to 4K60 from 720p60? Bargain!"
Tentacle-tropes
Kremling
Outside the other reasons people have given, what is Nintendo going to do about retail stores that but from them? They have download cards but those are not enough.
ReddDreadtheLead
#TeamLate2025WithAPotentialForEarly2026
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Btw Nintendo is like the only publisher who continuously updates their physical carts with all the latest patches and updates.
This idea that they are to drop it doesn’t really track.
This idea that they are to drop it doesn’t really track.
well, if you're already 60fps then it's on the table.
but with numbers like that, might as well just go with 4x resolution and reap benefits elsewhere like stability
ShadowFox08
Paratroopa
Speaking of carts.. I'm really worried how they are gonna handle it for switch Next games. 1st party likely won't be much of an issue for current switch games at least.. But I'm mostly worried about third party games. PS4 and Xbone multiplat especially are huge, and in part because they don't compress and have copies of files to reduce loading times ( the Jaguar CPU speeds and discs are also not helping much iirc). Compare that to PS5 and series X port remasters of last gen, many are smaller in size.
Witch Switch Next, we're getting faster CPU speeds, faster SSD, so that should help. But still... 80-100 GB games still exist on xbone/0s4 1080p games, including Cod.
32 GB carts aren't even mainstream yet, and unless Nintendo starts using them and 64 GB carts, I can't imagine the prices to go down drastically. For the hardcore gamers, we'll likely buy the highest storage SD cards available.. but casuals though? Could hurt them, when competitors are offering 1TB storage sizes at default.
Witch Switch Next, we're getting faster CPU speeds, faster SSD, so that should help. But still... 80-100 GB games still exist on xbone/0s4 1080p games, including Cod.
32 GB carts aren't even mainstream yet, and unless Nintendo starts using them and 64 GB carts, I can't imagine the prices to go down drastically. For the hardcore gamers, we'll likely buy the highest storage SD cards available.. but casuals though? Could hurt them, when competitors are offering 1TB storage sizes at default.
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32GB game cards still aren't used much, but they have been around since literally day 1 of Switch, so it's definitely overdue for 64 or even 128 to make an appearance.
EDIT: I've now remembered how, based on 16 and 32 being there at the start, I very confidently predicted that by the end of Switch we'd have game cards with well beyond Blu-ray capacity considering most other cart/card generations saw capacity increases of 4x or more through their life. OOPS.
EDIT: I've now remembered how, based on 16 and 32 being there at the start, I very confidently predicted that by the end of Switch we'd have game cards with well beyond Blu-ray capacity considering most other cart/card generations saw capacity increases of 4x or more through their life. OOPS.
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Deleted member 887
Guest
It's a good find, absolutely. You can check out my summary (it's in the threadmarks) for the current info. I said I wouldn't update it, but so much came in immediately afterward that I did anyway.
Absolutely. I hate the unification of modern engine development, but the default being a mature cross platform engine really matters. Generations are broken up by both raw measures of power and by feature set. Modern engines allow you to not just scale your solutions to power, but to swap, between, say, two mature lighting solutions without changing tool sets.
It's interesting you bring up iterative hardware. The definition I've often heard bandied about for a console generation is a 6x-8x leap in power. In terms of raw performance the PS4->PS5 gap was absolutely there, but what about PS4Pro->PS5, or XBox One X -> Xbox Series S?
I don't know how big a leap, ultimately, t239 is (although, obviously, we can make guesses) till the final little details and clock speeds come into play. And I have no desire to poke the Pro/Successor bear ever again, but it'll be interesting to see how the cross-gen period for Switch goes, the degree to which games are either built for the Original and expanded (taking advantage of the power powerful hardware) or built for Drake and cut down (RT and DLSS is the assumption, with more basic lighting solutions and alternative upscaling solutions on T210)
ShadowFox08
Paratroopa
Yeah know a small handful of switch games use 32 GB cards,. but it's like 3-4. 16 and 32 GB cards are a lot more expensive than the high storage capacity discs for PS4 and xbone, so I do think devs weighed that in when deciding to make games for switch.
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