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StarTopic Sonic Origins |ST| Gotta Go Past! [Plus Expansion Pack + Physical Release Coming June 23, 2023]

One day Sega will port the GBA port of Sonic 1 to all platforms as is and call it a celebration.
 
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Well, uh, while we're here, if you want to support Headcanon's work without a greedy corporation rushing the work out the door without much care for the final product, might I suggest the criminally overlooked horizontal scrolling shooter Pier Pressure? So overlooked that I completely missed out on it, anyway. It's only 5 bucks on Steam!


Yeah...after reading that thread earlier I feel obligated to support an actual project by them now. Sigh.
 
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I finished Sonic 1. My Switch goes crazy when I veiew the 3d animated islands on the menu, and a bit crazy when viewing the awesome animated intros, but during gameplay I can mostly play without being afraid of the little console exploding. So I started Sonic CD with Tails. These games holds up so much. I haven't seen any bugs yet, and I am very satisfied.
 
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Intergrating the individual Sonic 3&K remaster into the Sonic Origins package.
Since you unlock coing in story mode, and then use those in the package to unlock stuff, I guess you couldn't have Sonic 3&K be a sort of "exe" file completely on it's own" without interacting with the rest of the package?
 
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Okay I genuinely am not trying to rip on this game as the devs already have it bad enough, but I am rolling over here:
 
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Worth reading the full thread.


Yea I totally got the feeling Sega wasn't giving this collection the time and care it deserved as we learned more details in the lead-up to release. Not going to be picking this up unfortunately if all of these issues continue to remain unsorted. Sega is such a frustrating company with regards to Sonic.
 
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Okay I genuinely am not trying to rip in this game as the devs already have it bad enough, but I am rolling over here:

Amazing, lmao (this was apparently a bug in the 2011 version too though).

Man, being able to retry the special stages in Sonic 2 is a godsend. Got all seven emeralds by Aquatic Ruin Act 2.
 
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Still slowly moving through story mode,made it to Carnival Night Zone Act 2 last night. And you know what? The music doesn't bother me.
 
A friend of mine just asked me, "sooo what's this about Michael Jackson doing the music for Sonic 3 now?" and I got to give a nerd history lesson. 😅

And then she said "see I had a feeling it would be better to ask you than to try and scour the internet."

I'm so proud of myself.
 
Honestly one of the music things that bugs me the most so far is that the Blue Sphere music doesn't speed up with the stage. Although it actually seems to make them easier since the faster music always got me stressed.

I might also be the only person who thinks the Sonic 1 special stages are easier without the slowdown.
 
Still slowly moving through story mode,made it to Carnival Night Zone Act 2 last night. And you know what? The music doesn't bother me.
Yeah I've been bouncing around some of the games and got to Carnival Night and I've cooled down a ton on the music overall. I still have strange nostalgia on these songs from the PC Collection but I'll say Jun did an alright job getting them redone in the Genesis/Mega Drive soundfont.

Plus there are some QoL things in S3&K I really enjoy like the extra frames for the characters on the barrel etc.
 
Do you think this was intentional or a bug that might be patched? That strikes me as a very odd change if it was deliberate.
I wouldn't put it past it being an unintended error by the Sega devs handling the music. We know Mania handles it properly.

Speaking of sound errors/changes I don't like, Sonic 3K normally has a unique Chaos Emerald jingle, but Origins just uses the one from Sonic 1/2. A small thing but it was immediately noticeable to me.
 
Speaking of sound errors/changes I don't like, Sonic 3K normally has a unique Chaos Emerald jingle, but Origins just uses the one from Sonic 1/2. A small thing but it was immediately noticeable to me.
....
I never noticed that.

I just youtubed it and.. yeah, 3K seems to have an extra note underneath the main melody.
Holy hell how have I never noticed that..?
 
Do you think this was intentional or a bug that might be patched? That strikes me as a very odd change if it was deliberate.
Given they way they seem to have implemented the music (it's recordings of original Genesis/Mega Drive hardware rather than being emulated, which is why it sounds softer), I think it's an unintentional error. It'd be cool if it was patched but ultimately it's not a huge deal unless you're very anal about accuracy.
I wouldn't put it past it being an unintended error by the Sega devs handling the music. We know Mania handles it properly.

Speaking of sound errors/changes I don't like, Sonic 3K normally has a unique Chaos Emerald jingle, but Origins just uses the one from Sonic 1/2. A small thing but it was immediately noticeable to me.
Holy shit I didn't know that.
 
For context, this is the Sonic 1/2 Emerald jingle (also used in Sonic 4 and Mania):




...and this is the Sonic 3K jingle, also used in 3D Blast:

 
I’m up to the final boss of Sonic 2 and have to say, other than an odd glitch as Super Sonic on OilOcean where I got caught in a ball at the end of the screen, I’ve seen nothing obvious in terms of glitches or errors.

I’m loving this collection. For reference, I’ve played these games probably once a year for the past 25-30 years, and these are probably my favourite versions (music disappointment (but understandable) aside).
 
Last night I played through Sonic CD. I love how the new animations showcase Amy's Tarot readings, it's a super cute nod to the lore. But as for the game itself? It's great! The focus on exploration, using the level design to time travel and find the robot generators/Metal Sonic projector in the past, gives the game a great flavor compared to the other classic titles. I can see why people wouldn't like it as much, especially since if you're not exploring the experience isn't as strong, but I at least like it more than Sonic 1. Two amazing soundtracks too, some of the best in the series.

I think there are a couple of things that are a little weak though. First, while the Metal Sonic projector is a neat extra to find, the benefit is JUST aesthetic, which isn't great. Second, the robot generators can be a bit of an all or nothing - if you know you gotta go after all of them it's not a big deal, but if you miss even one there goes your chance at the good ending through that route. There is the time stones, and I think it's cool that you have two possible routes to getting the good ending, but getting them does remove the incentive to explore, so it's not the easiest to mix those play styles. Even easier thanks to Anniversary Mode, removing a lot of the danger as long as you can get to them. Still, I have a lot of fondness for CD, and a first time player might not see these as issues.

The CD missions have a few interesting ones, like the time travel based ones or the Tails Ring collection ones. Still just alright but I wish there were more meat to the bone.

Started Sonic 2 today as well - Anniversary Mode let me do something I've never done - all Chaos Emeralds in Emerald Hill. Time to blast through this game!
 
Sonic CD does have a fantastic soundtrack, and I actually like how the bosses have a significant amount of variety, although that does make some of them feel underwhelming.

But overall I just can't get into it the same way I can every other game in this collection. It just doesn't click for me.
 
Finished Sonic 1 and Sonic CD. Started Sonic 2 and was shocked how smooth and perfect the Sonic 2 special stages are. Were they always like this? I renember them more choppy in a way. But I honestly got the habit of skipping the Sonic 2 special stages for the last 20 years, since (except the first one) I used to fail them quickly.

Maybe I’m just remembering the 50HZ days?
 
Finished Sonic 1 and Sonic CD. Started Sonic 2 and was shocked how smooth and perfect the Sonic 2 special stages are. Were they always like this? I renember them more choppy in a way. But I honestly got the habit of skipping the Sonic 2 special stages for the last 20 years, since (except the first one) I used to fail them quickly.

Maybe I’m just remembering the 50HZ days?
They were not always smooth, you're right.

Genesis:
Specialstage1.png


Origins:
1280x720.jpg
 
So playing Sonic 2 has showcased the first major glitch in Origins that I've encountered - following Tails is broken. Normally, if he goes offscreen, he is supposed to respawn and follow you back to the screen. This works perfectly fine in the early game, but in these later zones, Tails instead doesn't respawn and instead keeps trying to reach Sonic to no avail. This turned Metropolis Zone into hearing the jump sound effect over and over and over again as I made my way through it, just to give an example. And while it technically doesn't affect Sonic's mechanics and play (at least if you're willing to stand the jump sound effect played every half a second or so), since Tails doesn't come back to you, it means you can't take advantage of Tails assist.

I did finish Sonic 2, though. I'm not as experienced with it as 1 or CD and it shows, mostly on the dozen or so deaths I had to the Death Egg Robot. I'm fond of Sonic 2 but I feel like I need to play it more to develop an appreciation for it. It's better than 1 in that it's the series figuring out what it wants to be more, with a higher emphasis of speed, but it also means that, barring just using Super Sonic to get through the whole thing, I need more experience with these acts to play them well.
 
They upgraded Tails!

Now he can be super Taiks with regular chaos emeralds (though he lacks flickies). Does thst mean he’ll be hyper Taiks with the super emeralds, and the flickies will return?
 
That is correct, yes.
That is so interesting. You see, as a kid I (and my friends) had made so many weird explainations for Sonic games.

  • Tails needs a lot of power to go super, so that is why he can only do it with the super emeralds
  • Hydro Citys boss will cut even Super Sonic, that is why he can look like just a golden Sonic after the boss
  • In Sonic 2 you can’t spin dash because Tails will teach it to Sonic
  • Knuckles is so strong he doesn’t need to punch boulders to destroy them, he just walks into them and they explode
  • Tails only got strong enough to carry Sonic while he flies by the time Sonic 3 started.
 
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They upgraded Tails!

Now he can be super Taiks with regular chaos emeralds (though he lacks flickies). Does thst mean he’ll be hyper Taiks with the super emeralds, and the flickies will return?
Ohhhhh that's a great change!
 
So playing Sonic 2 has showcased the first major glitch in Origins that I've encountered - following Tails is broken. Normally, if he goes offscreen, he is supposed to respawn and follow you back to the screen. This works perfectly fine in the early game, but in these later zones, Tails instead doesn't respawn and instead keeps trying to reach Sonic to no avail. This turned Metropolis Zone into hearing the jump sound effect over and over and over again as I made my way through it, just to give an example. And while it technically doesn't affect Sonic's mechanics and play (at least if you're willing to stand the jump sound effect played every half a second or so), since Tails doesn't come back to you, it means you can't take advantage of Tails assist.

I did finish Sonic 2, though. I'm not as experienced with it as 1 or CD and it shows, mostly on the dozen or so deaths I had to the Death Egg Robot. I'm fond of Sonic 2 but I feel like I need to play it more to develop an appreciation for it. It's better than 1 in that it's the series figuring out what it wants to be more, with a higher emphasis of speed, but it also means that, barring just using Super Sonic to get through the whole thing, I need more experience with these acts to play them well.
That is indeed the most common and annoying bug, but it's actually got a fairly simple fix: hold up and jump a few times. Tails will come back after that.
 
I had completely forgotten how short Carnival Night Zone is when playing as Knuckles wow.

He doesn't even get a boss in act 2.
 
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been playing a lot of this. great games, great visuals, mediocre options, horrible new music. would still recommend. wish they consulted the Sega ages guys to make the options better.
 
As an illustrator and animator myself I love the new little frames of animations they have made for Super Sonic, for rotating on a barrel while ducking or looking up, for Tails opening in Sonic 3 and so on. Lovely stuff :)
 
been playing a lot of this. great games, great visuals, mediocre options, horrible new music. would still recommend. wish they consulted the Sega ages guys to make the options better.
Or even just brought over the options from Mania which the retro engine has, very weird
 
Uhhh

So I'm playing Sonic 3 & Knuckles, right? And I got all the Chaos Emeralds by Hydrocity, pretty nice stuff, thank you anniversary mode. I went for all perfects and racked up a pretty solid score. But when I exited out of a bonus game in Marble Garden, I lost my points? Okay, no big deal. I reach a Giant Ring in Carnival Night Zone.

I don't get 50 rings.

I'm back in the first special stage.

The game inexplicably took away four of my Chaos Emeralds, and now I have to play the Special Stages again to get them back.

What the actual fuck.


Well, I guess I'm avoiding every bonus game I can in case I lose my Emeralds again. Damn, that is a terrible glitch.
 
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Well then.

Unfortunately for Switch owners, the other major drawback with the compilation is specific to Nintendo's hybrid system. The front-end (i.e, the main menu) runs at 30fps with blurry, muddy visuals, which compared to the 4K resolution and 60fps frame rate you'd see on the likes of PS5 and Xbox Series X, is a severe disappointment.
After getting called out and made fun of by multiple people for pointing out that the trailers had fine print claiming 60fps was available on PC, Xbox, and PlayStation only, then some elevating that to claiming I was saying "Switch wasn't powerful enough to run Origins," I feel goddamn vindicated. Luckily it was only referring to the menu, but still.

Actually I shouldn't say "luckily," because the menu running worse isn't lucky at all. 😑
 
Well then.


After getting called out and made fun of by multiple people for pointing out that the trailers had fine print claiming 60fps was available on PC, Xbox, and PlayStation only, then some elevating that to claiming I was saying "Switch wasn't powerful enough to run Origins," I feel goddamn vindicated. Luckily it was only referring to the menu, but still.

Actually I shouldn't say "luckily," because the menu running worse isn't lucky at all. 😑

Given that the front end is all Hedgehog Engine 2, and we already know that Hedgehog Engine 2 runs at 30 on Switch thanks to Sonic Forces (and presumably Frontiers), it tracks. That's on Sega for really, REALLY wanting to use the engine as their wrapper for this compilation. For all the issues the compilation has, the four games themselves run at 60. That's the thing that actually matters and that people care about. So the answer is...everyone is right. The Switch can handle the Retro Engine completely fine at 60, but Hedgehog Engine 2 is too much.

...or maybe Pac-Man Museum+ desensitized me to the whole thing because it also has a 3D menu at 30 FPS while the games themselves ran at 60.
 
The menu doesn't bother me at all plus we've known it was running at that framerate when Sega(?) did that 1 hour livestream showcasing a bunch of the game. That was the Switch version.

But yeah, still a downgrade!

The one nerdy thing that annoys me in ALL versions is that Sega never bothered to make a Classic Knuckles or Amy model for those islands. Weird! They're just recycling models of Sonic, Tails, Eggman and Metal Sonic among others from Generations.
 
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After getting called out and made fun of by multiple people for pointing out that the trailers had fine print claiming 60fps was available on PC, Xbox, and PlayStation only, then some elevating that to claiming I was saying "Switch wasn't powerful enough to run Origins,"
I was referring to a Resetera post specifically. I know you were concerned about the disclaimer, sorry.
 
Given that the front end is all Hedgehog Engine 2, and we already know that Hedgehog Engine 2 runs at 30 on Switch thanks to Sonic Forces (and presumably Frontiers), it tracks.
Yeah that's sorta what I figured
So the answer is...everyone is right.
My favorite outcome 😁

I was referring to a Resetera post specifically. I know you were concerned about the disclaimer, sorry.
Oh what? Seriously? Someone on Era was unironically saying Switch couldn't run Origins?? 😳😳😳 (also I wasn't trying to single you out or anything, I'm pretty sure I saw multiple people make the statement over the weeks but.. maybe they were talking about Era, too 😅)
 
Oh what? Seriously? Someone on Era was unironically saying Switch couldn't run Origins?? 😳😳😳
Yeah something along the lines of "I'll be getting this on PS4 because the Switch will deliver a compromised Sonic experience bla bla" and they were referring to Origins and not Frontiers. Not an understandable concern like if Sega would mess up the port (which they did, forced bilinear filtering is garbage), not even a question of platform preference, just straight up the Switch can't handle these four... Genesis remasters.

But yeah, your concerns were reasonable and validated, it was never a question of power but of how much effort they would invest in the port. And I'm not even sure why the Switch runs these menu islands at 30 FPS, maybe it's because they're all rendered fully at once in full detail.
 
Yeah something along the lines of "I'll be getting this on PS4 because the Switch will deliver a compromised Sonic experience bla bla" and they were referring to Origins and not Frontiers. Not an understandable concern like if Sega would mess up the port (which they did, forced bilinear filtering is garbage), not even a question of platform preference, just straight up the Switch can't handle these four... Genesis remasters.
* deep breath *
eww
And I'm not even sure why the Switch runs these menu islands at 30 FPS, maybe it's because they're all rendered fully at once in full detail.
As @VolcanicDynamo mentioned, the menu stuff is running in the same engine as Forces and Frontiers (which explained why the Origins datamine ended up leaking a bunch of Frontiers assets) and since the Switch version of that engine is.. let's say suboptimal, it runs the menu sections accordingly. 🤷‍♂️
 
Could the menus have been better optimized for the Switch port? Absolutely. But that's just one of many things that show that the collection was a rush job that wasn't alotted the time and effort it deserved. The story of the Sonic franchise, I suppose...
 
So I decided to play more Sonic 3K today. I stopped last night at Mushroom Hill Zone.

I loaded the game from Story Mode. It said I would go to Mushroom Hill Zone.

It sent me to fucking Marble Garden Act 2 - the act I lost my Emeralds on, with my original score intact.

So I quit out. My game is now saved at Marble Garden, but my completion percentage is still at 85%.

What in the fuck is this compilation??
 
Welp, one of the zones I voted for made it in, at least! Just means my tastes are, for the most part, unique.

 
So that's Sonic 3 and Knuckles completed, and with that the entire story mode. I also finished off all the missions with an S Rank and unlocked everything in the Museum. I'd say that the grand majority of meaningful content done, though I still intend to at least do a Knuckles S3K run. It's enough done that I can talk about my thoughts.

What is there to say about Sonic 3 & Knuckles that hasn't been said? It rightfully earns its place as the best of the Genesis Sonic games. It does the best at balancing fast paced platforming and exploration thanks to its broad, expansive levels, which makes them the most appealing to play. You can go fast and there's plenty to find in all the nooks and crannies, from the new shields to lots of rings and of course access to special stages. The shield mechanics give a lot of extra options to Sonic, and the insta-shield mechanic is subtle but very useful for protection and that extra bit of range on an attack. Everything feels bigger and grander. Larger acts. More powers. Bosses ending each act. 14 Special Stages. It's the total package. There are a couple of acts that drag on too long (Carnival Night 2 and Sandopolis 2 are the worst offenders, and I imagine having to search for Special Rings in some of those late game acts would be really painful), but it's mostly solid throughout. I really want to go back and play Mania to see how it stacks up, because it's undeniable that while it's the best since 3K, it stands on the shoulders of giants, so to speak.

As for how it's handled in Origins? Well...the additions done by Headcannon are quite great. Sprite touch ups for Super Sonic and Eggman, new intro cutscenes for Tails and the tweaks to Sonic's intro, the new transition between Launch Base and Mushroom Hill, the revamped Level Select menu, various extra attentions to detail like the boulder falling with you in Lava Reef 2 or using the falling animation in Hydrocity 2 when Knuckles springs his trap or Knuckles visibly damaging the Egg Mobile Sonic uses in Launch Base 2...there's a lot of love here, a genuine attempt to make this a polished up Sonic 3K experience. But the audio implementation leaves a lot to be desired. I've said my piece on the replacement tracks in the prerelease thread, but in general, while the tracks reused from the prototype are solid, the new renditions of tracks made to sound more like the Sonic & Knuckles Collection are not good. The new Super Sonic theme is also horribly unfitting, using instruments that don't sound like S3K at all. But the real worst part has to be the audio quality, which sounds muffled and imbalanced in comparison to the other Genesis tracks, only made more obvious by the fact that the new Super Sonic theme is crystal clear. The choices of music too are also strange - Sonic 3 title and life jingle, but Sonic & Knuckles invincibility and credits. And of course it would be remiss to not mention the glitches people have found. The save glitch that I experienced doesn't seem to be an isolated issue, and there's a whole thread on Sonic Retro discussing glitches others found. This version of S3K is far from unplayable, this is not a Sonic Genesis level mess, but there's a lot of room for improvement here.

Later on today or tomorrow I'll make another post talking about my thoughts on the collection as a whole. I got a lot to digest. For now, have a new Sonic Speed Strats!

 
And that's the Knuckles playthrough of S3K done (first time I actually played it through in full!), and Knuckles absolutely earns the top billing he gets here. Playing the game with Sonic and/or Tails already gives you a complete experience stuffed with content - I could play just that and feel satisfied. But Knuckles adds a bunch to the adventure. His moveset of climbing, gliding, and breaking walls lends perfectly to the larger acts filled with secrets, but he's balanced by his lower jump, so you gotta be creative with how you approach the same challenges. And the level designers were creative, too, providing plenty of new paths that only Knuckles can access. These range from short segments that focus on climbing and gliding to significant divergences from the Sonic & Tails acts to a few completely or near-completely original acts. A couple that really stood out were Angel Island 2, Launch Base 2, the dramatically shorter Carnival Night, Ice Cap 2's first half, and much of Lava Reef, especially 2. Not every change was a winner - by the nature of the story taking place after Sonic & Tails defeat Eggman, the stakes of the story are lower, and some of the more intense set pieces from the original adventure are absent. Knuckles skips a couple of bosses, and his adventure effectively ends after Lava Reef, with Sky Sanctuary being just a final boss arena and no Death Egg to explore.

Even with the kind of weak end game, the Knuckles adventure feels like a complete journey, filled with enough unique moments to meaningfully stand out from Sonic & Tails. For a franchise that so often uses multiple campaigns to extend the play time, this is still one of the best - the same core gameplay mixed with new abilities and routes to make the extra time spent on the other campaign worthwhile. Doesn't feel like fluff, doesn't feel like padding, doesn't feel divorced from the main gameplay we love. They nailed it. I want to play Mania again, but it's hard not to call Sonic 3 & Knuckles the best Sonic game, even with its few weak points. It so greatly expands on what the prior games did before it in almost every capacity.

I love this game so much that I want to keep this post dedicated just to S3K. I'll post my final Sonic Origins thoughts separately!
 


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